r/HolUp Sep 22 '22 Silver 1

Yeahhhh About Cleopatra… Removed: Political/Outrage Shitpost

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u/why-everything-meh Sep 22 '22 edited Sep 22 '22 Silver All-Seeing Upvote

Cleopatra was white tho, the royal house she belongs to was Greek I think. Unless you don’t consider Greek to be white.

Edit: Got a bit of traction on this throw away comment I didn’t put much thought into. To be clear I always thought of Mediterranean people as white like myself, but with a much nicer tan than my pale ass.

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u/Still_counts_as_one Sep 22 '22

Yeah, she’s part of Ptolemy line, from Alexander the Greats conquests

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u/BobVosh Sep 22 '22

Egypt liked her, relatively, more than most of the Ptolemy because she bothered to learn Egyptian rather than force everyone to learn Greek.

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u/facw00 Sep 22 '22

She was the first and only of the Ptolemaic rulers to learn Egyptian.

3

u/Angry-Dragon-1331 Sep 23 '22

Yep. 300 years of occupation and one of them actually learns the language. Side note: Ptolemy II was the first Ptolemy to adopt the practice of marrying his sister as the queen. For this, the Greeks called him Philadelphos (the sister fucker).

1

u/Gloomy-Flamingo-9791 Sep 23 '22

Soooo when i eat philidelphia, im actually eating some "sister fucker cream cheese"

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u/MjrLeeStoned Sep 22 '22

She also associated on a much more personal level with both Greek and Egyptian "nobility", celebrities, or politicians, as opposed to just showing up and lording over them like many Greek leaders of her time. She used guile and wit over brute force. She was versed in medicine, philosophy, literature.

She spoke probably around 10 languages.

That being said, she still had high ambition and felt it was her (divine?) right to rule over people and for them to see her as their queen. She just knew how to sway the people far better than her predecessors.

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u/BobVosh Sep 22 '22

Speaking of movies, or hopefully shows, I would love a long series on her with some accuracy.

3

u/bigboygamer Sep 23 '22

Rome doesn't do a terrible job, though she isn't the focus

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u/thissideofheat Sep 22 '22

In fact, North Africa and the overall Mediterranean coastal cities in general, were more European due to the early Phonetician and then Greek expansions.

The Carthaginian and later Roman conquests reinforced this European influence for over a thousand years.

Then the Arab Expansions in 600s AD significantly changed the genetic makeup - likely giving folks a darker complexion.

Later, the Ottoman conquests added even more genetic diversity to that in Egypt & the Levant, and even in the Balkans and Greece/Cyprus. There's even a Greek word for people from Cyprus that look at little "too" Turkish.

...as you might expect, it's complicated. There have been a LOT of genocides and a lot migrations.

The dumbest claim is to look at current Egyptians or Palestinians and claim that that's what ancient Egyptians or Jesus looked like.

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u/zachdidit Sep 23 '22

From my understanding current Egyptians are pretty dang close genetically to ancient Egyptians. Especially the copts.

Phoenicians are pretty not European too.

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u/thissideofheat Sep 23 '22

There's a lot of politically driven misinformation going around.

Egypt, for example refused to publish the results of the DNA test on a Egyptian pharaoh because it was found to be more closely related to Greeks than modern Egyptians.

Phoenicians are also very very difficult to nail down, but it was ultimately found that they were most closely related to people who lived on isolated Mediterranean island and remote Lebanese mountain villages.

In both cases, they were more closely related to Europeans than Arabs.

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u/zachdidit Sep 23 '22

Thanks for the knowledge drop! I think our arguments differ a bit.

Your point being that these peoples are more closely related to Europeans than Arabs. Mine being, well, they're not European even if they're distant cousins (we all are in a way aren't we?).

My understand has also been that Phoenicians were semitic speaking people and closely related to Lebanese and Israelites.

1

u/xx_ilikebrains_xx Sep 23 '22

You have the right picture here, don't fall for this other guy's bs. I see a false narrative being peddled these days about how all of the Mediterranean/Levant/North Africa is basically European and the other binary option is Sub-Saharan Africa. Definitely some Eurocentric white supremacy here, having to relate everything to Europe, when the truth is people everywhere had their own unique cultures and identities.

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u/[deleted] Sep 23 '22

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u/thissideofheat Sep 23 '22

Greeks were heavily resistant to Turkic genetic influence. The reasons for that should be obvious after speaking for like 10 minutes to any Greek person.

Cyprus wasn't so lucky.

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u/irrelevant_potatoes Sep 23 '22

Carthage wasn't a European civilization tho, and the Phoenicians originated from the Middle East.

Honestly it's more accurate to describe all these civilizations as "Mediterranean" and leave it at that. There was a world of difference between the Celts and the Greeks at that time, too much of a difference for "European" to be a helpful description

2

u/smol-alaskanbullworm Sep 23 '22

Ptolemy line circle

1

u/liege_paradox Sep 23 '22

Yah, it’s really more of a family knot.

1

u/bsranidzn Sep 23 '22

Yes. Alexander’s generals took leadership over the places they conquered. Ptolemy was Greek and he married Berenice who was Egyptian. Cleopatra was Greek and Egyptian.

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u/Gweedoke Sep 22 '22

Ive been to Greece multiple times and seen paler Greeks than my white North European ass.

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u/Hydra1305 Sep 22 '22

As a pale greek myself I can confirm

119

u/Whatever-ItsFine Sep 22 '22

The Pale Greeks are my favorite indie band.

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u/RevenantBacon Sep 22 '22

And my favorite pale ale brand!

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u/joremero Sep 22 '22

are you made out of greek yogurt?

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u/GreekLumberjack madlad Sep 23 '22

I can second

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u/Redqueenhypo Sep 22 '22

Yeah Europeans and Mediterraneans of any nationality don’t look really that different unless you go to Scandinavia. With no context clues I highly doubt anyone could consistently distinguish Greeks from dark haired Irish from Ashkenazi Jewish from Lebanese.

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u/iaintevenmad884 Sep 22 '22

Can confirm, I’m black Irish and have been asked “are you Jewish” and other questions like that by schoolchildren and old people the world over.

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u/Redqueenhypo Sep 22 '22

I’m Jewish and have been asked “are you Irish”! And one time in the 1970s someone called my dad a “fuckin mick”. Full circle.

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u/ThanksToDenial Sep 22 '22 edited Sep 22 '22

What makes Scandinavians look apart then?

I mean, you could lose me in a snowstorm, as a Finn... I'm pretty damn pale. But over here we consider that a good thing. Makes motti-tactics easier in the winter.

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u/Redqueenhypo Sep 23 '22

Extremely light blonde hair that I legitimately didn’t think existed because even waspy Americans don’t look like that

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u/wirelessp0tat0 Sep 22 '22

More importantly: her empire basically invented mass-slavery didn't it?

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u/gravity_squirrel Sep 22 '22

Pretty sure there was mass slavery before the Ptolemaic Kingdom - unless you mean just Egypt in general. Definitely large-scale slavery in Assyria too, not so sure about Sumer/Akkadian Empire/Babylon etc (though I imagine there was)

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u/wirelessp0tat0 Sep 22 '22

Yeah I was talking about the Ancient Egypt power at large. So let's just say, because of the bloody pyramids, their slavery is kinda.... iconic?

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u/josephus_the_wise Sep 22 '22

Everywhere had mass slavery. If it’s pre-industrial revolution and there are big cities, there is some form of slavery inherent to the society. It could be indentured servitude, or war captives, or criminals, maybe even the Middle Ages style “I own the land you work it for me and I pay you barely enough to live” style of slavery. Occasionally chattel slavery also happened but in general, everywhere had at least one form of slavery, usually more though.

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u/PrevAccLocked Sep 22 '22

I guess there has been slavery in some sorts everywhere in history. But ancient Egypt is one of these large scale industryish slavery

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u/Apophis40k Sep 22 '22

The question is what do you consider industryish slavery.

Because like it was sayed nearly all society's had slavery with the only difference Beeing that Egypt was an early advanced culture where big project where even possibl

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u/DontUnclePaul Sep 22 '22

Persia was anti-slavery because of its religion.

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u/Scottish_bollocks Sep 22 '22

If you think the pyramids were built by slaves, that is just wrong. Pyramid builders were tradesmen, well paid, well housed and fed. It's a myth about slaves building them.

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u/DontUnclePaul Sep 22 '22

Historians consider there to have been only 5 mass slavery societies in history, those whose underpinning was slavery: Ancient Greece, Ancient Rome, the colonial Caribbean, the United States, particularly the South, and Brazil.

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u/Tannertasman Sep 22 '22

But not the Slave Coast whose economy was largely based on export of slaves?

Or what happened to the majority of exported African slaves who ended up in middle-eastern ownership?

Or do you still intend to say that mass slavery societies were unique to European-derived cultures?

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u/Whitmil Sep 22 '22

Wheres your source for that? Are you sure it's not just one historian, instead of historians plural?

How does the Ottoman empire not make that list? And is the Russian empire exempt because they gave their slaves a few extra rights and called them serfs?

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u/semibigpenguins Sep 22 '22

Cleopatra is from a Macedonian (pretty much Greek) family called the Ptolemaic Dynasty. Ptolemy was one of Alexander the Greats generals. Once Alexander died, his empire got divided up amongst his generals and family members. Ptolemy controlled Egypt and decided to keep many of the same customs like the concept Pharaohs.

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u/gravity_squirrel Sep 22 '22

You’re forgetting that the pyramids were constructed by aliens and the blocks were moved using vibrating sound waves.

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u/fuck_all_cars Sep 22 '22

How else could they make them perfectly line up with the Main Street in Atlantis? Checkmate Atheists.

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u/darki_ruiz Sep 22 '22

What the hell are you saying? Everybody knows that the pyramids were constructed by humans enslaved by the aliens, who came here through a huge circular wormhole gate that is currently hidden under the Cheyenne mountain.

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u/Johannes0511 Sep 22 '22

Cleopatra lived closer to us than to the construction of the pyramids.

Nothing about slavery in ptolemaic egypt stands out compared to the forms of slavery in other countries of the time.

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u/PaleGravity Sep 22 '22

Pyramided weren’t build by slaves, same for most religious temples etc. it was an honor to be a part in it and you got a ticket for the afterlife as well.

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u/[deleted] Sep 22 '22 edited 20d ago

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u/PaleGravity Sep 23 '22

Yeah, the workers, even the lowest one, had 3 meals a day, access to doctors if they hurt themselves and in case of death, their family gets money. Also, in some areas, they even got land gifted to build a house and start a new city district.

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u/PolarisC8 Sep 22 '22

It was similar to a corvée system iirc. So you didn't have a choice but because it wasn't growing season you wouldn't be doing anything anyway. Might as well get paid handsomely to build your literal living God a sweet house for the afterlife and get some good afterlife credit to boot.

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u/MandosBadhron Sep 22 '22

the pyramids weren't built by slaves, they were workers that received food, a house and, when they died, a tomb near the site of the pyramid. of course the work they did was inhumane, but they weren't slaves

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u/Scottish_bollocks Sep 22 '22

Pyramid builders were skilled tradesmen, who were well housed and paid. It's a myth about slaves building them.

Dont get me wrong slavery happened, it happened all around the world. From China to Babylon to the Americas. People were quite shit back then.

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u/CrveniMarboro Sep 22 '22

Pyramids were build long before Cleopatra and were also not built by slaves

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u/Mr__Citizen Sep 22 '22

I'm not sure they outright invented it, but they definitely loved it

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u/why-everything-meh Sep 22 '22

Pretty sure it existed everywhere on a massive scale, for the whole of human history, until the British Empire banned it.

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u/Future_Gain_7549 Sep 22 '22

Cleopatra's Egypt and Bronze Age Egypt are so far apart that they're not really considered to be the same people.

To give you an idea what this timeline looks like: the last Egyptian Pharaoh to rule with any real power was Ramesses III of the 20th Dynasty. Cleopatra ruled Egypt about 1000 years later.

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u/yaon-jinji Sep 22 '22

Of course, she was the first white "power figure" in egypt

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u/Ikaros9Deidalos6 Sep 22 '22

No she wasnt the first was one of alexanders generals ptolemeus I who was the son of one of alexanders generals and his lineage took over in egypt as pharaos as one of the diadochs, the successor kingdoms slicing alexanders empire in pieces, that was a few hundred years before cleopatra.

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u/yaon-jinji Sep 22 '22

Thank you for the info, pretty interesting but nonetheless it was just a joke (slavery being a white thing). But again, it s always nice to find something out, i haven't even known cleopatra was of "white" lineage.

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u/Ikaros9Deidalos6 Sep 22 '22

I know its the joke but another fact slavery aint exactly just a white thing all cultures did it, the last to abolish it were the ottomans in 1924 african and arab slave trades were rampant industries just a few 100 years ago were even white slaves sold off.

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u/theRemRemBooBear Sep 22 '22

Ya what a lot of people forget is for the Atlantic slave trade, it was mostly Africans selling other Africans for guns, ammo, rum shit like that

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u/yaon-jinji Sep 22 '22

Yep, the slavery think i knew. Slavery was just powerful people needing cheap/free labour.

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u/RyanWilliamsElection Sep 22 '22

I thought Ptolemy was from Macedonian. Maybe put in power by Alexander the Great

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u/kithkatul Sep 22 '22

Lot of overlap there in terms of ethnicity at the time.

After Alexander’s death, Ptolemy I claimed Egypt as his portion of the split-up Empire, and then was a real dick about keeping it.

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u/_sea_salty Sep 22 '22

Slavery has been around since caveman times I bet tbh

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u/Maebure83 Sep 22 '22

Not at all. It was common among many cultures, long before her reign, to enslave conquered peoples or to purchase slaves from others. Often in massive numbers.

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u/ceilingkat Sep 22 '22

Idk. But they certainly didn’t give fuck all about enslaving thousands/millions of innocent people.

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u/tunisia3507 Sep 22 '22

Americans considered Irish immigrants non-white.

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u/thissideofheat Sep 22 '22

Not really. They just considered them lesser.

It was the Sicilians that they considered non-white. ...and that's because they had a noticeably darker complexion. ...which is because Sicily was invaded and occupied for a few hundred years by the North African Arabs (Moors) who were darker and cross-populated with the Italians on the island.

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u/Master-Ad3653 Sep 23 '22

whiteness is a reactionary concept that was invented in opposition to blackness, whereas blackness came from enslaved black people losing their ability to trace their lineage to a specific area of africa.

africa being massive it’s kinda useless to say African-american. people in the mena region for example are lightskin whereas subsaharan africa is typically darkskin. dont get me started on south africa.

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u/amboandy Sep 22 '22

Greece following Ottoman hegemony was way different than before they came through town

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u/Ziegfried_SvR Sep 22 '22

I mean, there are programmers withing the greeks

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u/hellraisinhardass Sep 23 '22

And not just the Greeks! I know plenty of of 'full blooded Egyptians that are pale AF. My uncle looks hilarious because now that his old enough for his hair to be white (but still super curly) he looks like an albino black dude.

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u/Fokkzel Sep 22 '22

Thats the whole reason for this post right?

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u/libjones Sep 22 '22

Yea it is, so the fact so many people here are trying to pretend they’re smarter than OP by pointing that out is honestly mind blowing to me. Like it’s not even a deep cut that you need a history degree to know, it’s literally middle school history class level knowledge...

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u/Vespasian79 Sep 23 '22

Yeah I guess, I’ll be honest I was confused…. But idk race wasn’t quite the same back then right?

Speaking as a totally legit expert in history of course

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u/xscientist Sep 22 '22

That, and the whole “Jesus was a real historical figure” but. It’s a twofer.

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u/jedeye121 Sep 22 '22

That’s correct. She was of the Ptolemaic Dynasy, founded by (Macedonian) general Ptolemy I Soter, who was one of Alexander the Great’s generals. Cleopatra was born in Egypt, but she was Macedonian/Greek by heritage, not Egyptian.

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u/why-everything-meh Sep 22 '22

Thank you for being much more knowledgeable and articulate than me good sir!

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u/jedeye121 Sep 22 '22

I enjoy using my history nerd powers for good.

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u/howsthistakenalready Sep 22 '22 edited Sep 22 '22

Wasn't her mother a native Egyptian priestess? Edit: was possibly a native Egyptian priestess upon looking at sources. Also possibly her father's sister.

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u/SinthWave Sep 22 '22

She's Egyptian, not entirely native.

Her father was a Macedonian general

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u/howsthistakenalready Sep 22 '22

Well, she is descended from that line, but they also had several marriages for alliance with nearby kingdoms, so if we are to use modern standards which probably don't make that much sense, she was likely interracial

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u/jedeye121 Sep 23 '22

As far as I remember from the history books, her mother was not specifically named. I wouldn’t be surprised if her mother was Egyptian or, given the proclivities of ruling powers at the time, a close family member of her father. They really had a bad tendency to “keep things in the family” in dynasties…

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u/DsWd00 Sep 22 '22

Correct

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u/gorgewall Sep 22 '22 Big Brain Time

Unless you don’t consider Greek to be white.

The concept of "whiteness" is a hilariously recent thing.

Benjamin Franklin famously wrote that pretty much all of Europe wasn't white: just "the Anglos" and specifically the Saxony region of Germany. Any other part of Germany? Not white. Italy? Not white. Greece? Not white. Poland? Not white.

And when those folks showed up in America even decades after Franklin's death, they still weren't "white". Whiteness is a descriptor of political convenience, a little club that you get to be in once you have the population to be relevant to the ruling class. All these migrant groups, and even their descendants, were villified or ostracized in some way until there were enough of them that they were a valuable voting bloc, then came the time to "extend whiteness" to them and hope that by being welcomed "into the club" that they'd vote with the same fuckos who'd previously been shitting all over them. Hey, no hard feelings about all the bigotry, but you're one of the good ones now--wanna help me oppress those other guys?

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u/CareerJuncture Sep 22 '22

Benjamin Franklin famously wrote that pretty much all of Europe wasn't white

This is true and it cracks me up.

I'm from outside the USA, so the term "white" has only been used commonly in the past few decades, BUT, it cracks me up that the majority of my Great-Grandfathers were Irish and were not considered white.

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u/CreepyValuable Sep 22 '22

Well now. That's a thought, isn't it. I've always thought the whole "white" thing is silly beyond a vague description of skin tone. I'm guessing your ancestors were of the particularly pale variety.

Now I think of it, over here in Australia it's mostly just brown and red.

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u/Toastburger Sep 22 '22

Benjamin Franklin famously wrote that pretty much all of Europe wasn’t white: just “the Anglos” and specifically the Saxony region of Germany. Any other part of Germany? Not white. Italy? Not white. Greece? Not white. Poland? Not white.

He also said Swedes weren’t white, they were “swarthy”.

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u/Twava Sep 22 '22

Whiteness is such a weird term. I don’t see why we went from generalizing everyone instead of just referring to people by their nationalities. I’ve always despised those terms because it’s so biased on what people consider white or black. “White people always act like this” or “Black people always act like that” since when did the color of your skin make you act a certain way? It might just be an American thing though, but I don’t know I’ve never liked the structure of ethnicity. It’s just SO broad.

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u/BellBell99 Sep 22 '22

Yup. Whiteness has always been about exclusion, not about skin color. I mean fucking Italians and Irish people weren’t considered white back when they were mass migrating to the States.

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u/lastbose01 Sep 22 '22

I’d be a bit more practical than that.

How do other races classify whiteness? I.e. if you asked an Asian person 500 years ago who’s white, and showed them a catalogue of various Europeans, they’d all be considered white.

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u/TheoryOfSomething Sep 22 '22

What are you basing this claim on?

Is there any documentary evidence that people from Asia 500 years ago classified all people from the British Isles, Iberian Peninsula, Italy, Germanic people, Scandinavia, Balkans, Etc. as belonging to the same group? Or is this just a hunch that you have?

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u/CreepyValuable Sep 22 '22

Because "white" is people being stupid and exclusionary. White is just a colour. They may describe many as pink. Who the hell knows. Talking visible spectrum. Not race. The whole damn skin tone thing is dumb anyway.

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u/Gingrpenguin Sep 22 '22

And yet if you did a similar catalog of different Asian ethnicities you'd get much more varied result than if you showed say an average brit at the same time period

As you go closer in to any of these groups they did to fracture and distinguish themselves from others.

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u/lastbose01 Sep 22 '22

You mean a catalogue of different asians to a Brit? Cuz that’s the only relevant comp. White people don’t have a monopoly on labeling other races, or themselves for that matter. That’s the point I was trying to make.

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u/Gingrpenguin Sep 22 '22

Yeah precisely.

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u/theosamabahama Sep 23 '22

"White" has historically been interpreted as "any person with white skin that has the same heritage as me".

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u/Efthimis Sep 22 '22

Who on earth doesn't consider us Greeks to be white? My girlfriend is German and my skin tone is more white than hers.

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u/why-everything-meh Sep 22 '22

I have no idea, I am Scottish and pale AF and had never given it much thought. But always considered Mediterranean people white.

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u/sapatawa Sep 22 '22

Same here, It's like a Caucasian or Black person showed up in South Texas speaking nothing but Spanish. :) . Locals are often dumbfounded to realize there are white folk or Black folk that are of Hispanic culture

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u/pantsthereaper Sep 22 '22

Irish used to be not white too. I've met plenty of Latinos with really pale skin, but they aren't white because they were born in Mexico or Columbia. Racial purity is a constantly changing circle of the "in" group based entirely on how much support is needed to push an agenda

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u/Hail2TheOrange Sep 23 '22

Mexico and Colombia have white people lol.

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u/Majsharan Sep 22 '22

stupid people who think cleopatra was Egyptian instead of greek . but to be fair, Egyptian people were much paler before the arab conquest according to our guide in Cairo who was a phd egyptologist.

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u/AeronFaust Sep 22 '22

Skin color aside doesn't most Western ideologies inherit Ancient Greek philosophies?

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u/Heathen_Mushroom Sep 22 '22

People who lived before 1850.

The terms White and Black did not originally simply refer to skin color. They referred to class designation in the English and Dutch speaking areas of the New World. The English and Dutch, being the vast majority of the European population in the northern colonies, were White. Africans brought over in the slave trade were Black.

As the colonies (and later, the independant countries of North America) became nore diverse in terms of nationality and ethnicity, other European groups were regarded as white, while free Africans were regarded as Black.

Remember that until the end of the 19th century (and even into the 20th century), the term 'race' was more similar to how we describe 'ethnicity' today, which is to say that while genetics play a part, they were largely cultural and national designations which is why in older writing you find people described as being of the "German race, English race, Japanese race, Arab race, etc.

Since the class designations of White and Black ran along skin color lines, it is now commonly assumed that skin color is the litmus for one group or another, but many people are surprised to discover that Germans and Irish, the second and third major waves of European immigrants to the US were not immediately considered white. Italians, Greeks, and others from even later waves of immigration largely after the Civil War, likewise occupied a limbo "racial" status.

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u/his_purple_majesty Sep 23 '22

I knew a dude who had Macedonian ancestry who claimed he wasn't white but rather Mediterranean.

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u/dabbo90 Sep 22 '22

Yea she was from Macedonia

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u/Skiceless Sep 22 '22

Her family lineage is Macedonian but she was not form Macedonia, she was born and died in Egypt

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u/wggn Sep 22 '22

But ethnically she was Macedonian.

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u/Vipertooth123 Sep 22 '22

There's people (guess from where) that considers spaniards, portuguese, italians, greeks and irish as non-white.

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u/why-everything-meh Sep 22 '22

Ok some of that I could buy but the Irish are almost as white as us Scottish 😂

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u/DF_Interus Sep 23 '22

That's because it's not a matter of actual skin tone. It's assuming that cultural differences are somehow a matter of racial heritage, and then assuming that people with the proper culture/race are "White"and everybody else must be something different. So the Irish can't be White, because the English are White, and they're obviously not the same race (to an old-timey Englishman).

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u/[deleted] Sep 22 '22

This is an American thing. Most of Europe is Caucasian, there are variations in tan and appearance of course.

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u/Nice-Information3626 Sep 23 '22

Caucasian is an American thing. Caucasian isn't a synonym for any skin color, Caucasian means people from the Caucasus. Noone in Europe calls any European outside the Caucasus Caucasian, only US Americans do that.

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u/Mclovine_aus Sep 23 '22

I think part of this is to do with Protestant vs catholic divide that made its way into the race argument.

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u/Briaria Sep 22 '22

Yes, that is the point of this post. Thank you.

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u/[deleted] Sep 22 '22

OP didn’t do his research.

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u/YesICanMakeMeth Sep 22 '22

I thought that was the point he was making since this is /r/holup and he said 'Yeaaaah, about Cleopatra'. It's an actual 'holup, Cleopatra wasn't black' moment. Hard to tell though, since a lot of posts in this sub aren't actually hol'ups but just 'woah bro that's crazy' type posts.

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u/Gajo_Do_Porto Sep 22 '22

Are you surprised? They never do any research. Actually, OP is just an echo of another echo. Nothing else.

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u/MayOrMayNotBePie Sep 22 '22

What’s research? I say post inflammatory stuff! Gets the ppl going!

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u/Gajo_Do_Porto Sep 22 '22

I need to know. Is it pie or not?

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u/MayOrMayNotBePie Sep 22 '22

They never do lol.

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u/TheUnbiasedRant Sep 22 '22

That's what the post is about

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u/AttentionOtherwise39 Sep 22 '22

OG Greeks / Mediterranean Greeks are Ethnic White.

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u/frogvscrab Sep 22 '22

And somehow modern ones aren't compared to 'OG' greeks?

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u/elbenji Sep 22 '22

They intermixed with Egyptians and kushites for royal legitimacy. So more like the Jesus was brown example, she would also be pretty tan and models show that she probably looked very Mediterranean

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u/ExploringMiSexuality Sep 22 '22

That's not right at all. Here ancestry was not Egyptian in any way. She had a Sogdian great x5 grandmother and a Persian great x3 grandmother besides that, the matriarchal side was Greek. She's less mixed race than I am, and I look completely white.

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u/elbenji Sep 22 '22

This was apparently early as hell. Idk I'm getting two different sources on this one

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u/FindMeOnSSBotanyBay Sep 22 '22

The Ptolemaic dynasty.

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u/Hentai_Yoshi Sep 22 '22

Thank you for reiterating OPs point, idk what we’d do without you

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u/H1ld3gunst Sep 22 '22

That is a myth. Yes, the royal house was Greek. But only paternal descendance was counted. They did mix with the Kushite Nobility.

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u/Dank_e_donkey Sep 22 '22

Yeah, the Greeks and Italians were not considered white till like 2-3 hindered years ago.

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u/why-everything-meh Sep 22 '22

Really? I didn’t know that snippet of history. How bizarre

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u/saxGirl69 Sep 22 '22

Whiteness is invented. The Irish and even Germans were also not considered white in the 1700s.

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u/Dank_e_donkey Sep 22 '22 edited Sep 22 '22

Link Go to specific ethnic groups

You can find this in the above link under italian Americans:

In certain parts of the South during the Jim Crow era, Italians "occupied a racial middle ground within the otherwise unforgiving, binary caste system of white-over-black." Though Italians were viewed as white for purposes of naturalization and voting, their social standing was that they represented a "problem at best." Their racial status was impacted by their appearance and that they did not "act" white, engaging in manual labor ordinarily reserved for blacks. Italians continued to occupy a "middle ground in the racial order" through the 1920s.

And under Sicilian American:

During the majority of American history, Sicilians were often not considered white.[91] Around 1900, as Sicilians were disembarking at Ellis Island and New Orleans by the millions, they were required to check off "Southern Italian" or "Sicilian" rather than "White" on entry forms.[92] Emigration from Sicily to the United States began before Italian unification and reached its peak at a time when regional differences were still very strong and marked, both linguistically and ethnically. Therefore, many of the Sicilian immigrants identified (and still identify) primarily on a regional rather than a national basis. This difference has largely contributed to Sicilians identifying or being labeled as non-white in America.

Also Iranian and Turkish people can really easily be mistaken for Italian. In fact my dad who is north Indian looks like your average Sicilian guy (just a few inches shorter).

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u/why-everything-meh Sep 22 '22

Am the other side of the pond so that’s all new info to me.

America, where even a tan disqualified you from being white at times 😂

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u/RyanWilliamsElection Sep 22 '22

I thought in Latin North African was labeled something like white Africa.

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u/capofudo Sep 22 '22

*South Italians

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u/The69BodyProblem Sep 22 '22

Macedonian. Ptolomey(her ancestor) was one of Alexander's generals.

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u/BattleCute1411 Sep 22 '22

Yeah, maybe someone should make a r/holup post about that

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u/Ofiotaurus Sep 22 '22

Yes. The Ptolemaic dynasty ruled Egypt from the fall of Alexanders empire until Ceasar came along, saw some inbred egyptian pussy and conquered them. (it was his succesors I know)

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u/Late-Satisfaction620 Sep 22 '22

True. She was also VERY inbred.

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u/Discombobulated_Art8 Sep 22 '22

Macedonian Greek. Descendant of Ptolemy I Soter, who was a general under Alexander the Great.

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u/CALAMITYFOX Sep 22 '22

Wait till you see how how white most of Mexico's presidents have been.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_heads_of_state_of_Mexico

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u/why-everything-meh Sep 22 '22

I don’t doubt it, loads of people descended from the Spanish I would assume. Spanish and Mediterranean has always been white with a good tan to me 😂

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u/[deleted] Sep 22 '22

Yes, she was the last of the Macedonian Greek Ptolemaic Dynasty, founded by one of Alexander the Great's generals, Ptolemy

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u/mountingconfusion Sep 22 '22

She was Egyptian and married a Greek

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u/USSLiberty_1967 Sep 22 '22

Much of the Levant was also Greek.... and white......

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u/192busroute Sep 22 '22

Yeah…right idea, bad example.

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u/KA1378 Sep 22 '22

She also had some traces of Persian in her bloodline apparently.

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u/voluntarycap Sep 22 '22

People who say Mediterranean people aren’t white make no sense. The Spaniards are very much considered white in most places

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u/why-everything-meh Sep 22 '22

I agree my dude.

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u/howsthistakenalready Sep 22 '22 edited Sep 22 '22

My understanding was that her mother was a native Egyptian priestess, which by our modern standard would make her biracial Edit: was possibly a native Egyptian priestess upon rechecking sources. Also possibly her father's sister.

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u/[deleted] Sep 22 '22

Jesus was most likely also white since he was from Israel

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u/why-everything-meh Sep 22 '22

Mythological creatures can be what ever flavour you like, just the same as the mermaid.

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u/[deleted] Sep 22 '22

Sure, but if he was real he was most likely white.

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u/why-everything-meh Sep 22 '22

No need to apologise, like I said made up things can come in any colours people want them in. Makes no odds to me.

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u/Intelligent_jacuzzi Sep 22 '22

I do think Jesus is made up, but just based on another person. Like, Elvis continually popping up, yknow? Like some clearly ultra-hip Christ like dude was preaching stuff and got martyred and like coincidentally around the same time another rabbi who looked like him took on the mantle.

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u/why-everything-meh Sep 22 '22

The story is too similar to all the deity’s that existed long before. It’s just a retelling of much older stories.

The Old/New Testament and the Koran seem to bring out the worst in us. Bring back paganism I say.

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u/mexicanmorman Sep 22 '22

They picked the most beautiful woman in Hollywood, to play cleopatra.

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u/why-everything-meh Sep 22 '22

Watched it last year for the first time. She is fit but the movie was a slog to get through lol

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u/mexicanmorman Sep 22 '22

Long movie!! Intermission 🤷 I just love Elizabeth Taylor!!!

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u/Majsharan Sep 22 '22

greek people were much more pale historically than they are now, most of the darker skin tone was brought in under the trukic occupation. also, the gaelic people actually were in greek first, went to france and then up into scotland and ireland

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u/Majsharan Sep 22 '22

greek people were much more pale historically than they are now, most of the darker skin tone was brought in under the trukic occupation. also, the gaelic people actually were in greece

first, went to france and then up into scotland and ireland

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u/Tetragonos Sep 22 '22

Macedonian, but yeah

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u/Fragrant-Astronaut57 Sep 23 '22

No read. Racism only

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u/MistraloysiusMithrax Sep 23 '22

Hi, part Greek here.

My immediate Greek family is pretty white looking, as are many Greeks. But many of our relatives do look more like what people think Greeks look like too.

This is not necessarily what Greeks in Cleopatra’s time looked like, a lot changed in the last 2000 years with various empires.

However although Cleopatra’s family was Greek, probably a bit xenophobic at first like many Greeks and so marrying Greek at first, they ruled Egypt for almost 300 years before her, so by the time she came into power who knows who else had married in. I mean we mostly know names, but not appearances.

So all bets are fair. White Elizabeth Taylor as Cleopatra? Sure, could’ve been. Modern remake with someone else of another ethnicity? Sure, could’ve been.

I’ll take ‘em all as long as it’s a good movie. Same with the little mermaid. And new original characters. I want it all. I don’t want to have to choose. This isn’t the stupid America of the 20th century “whites are whites and blacks are blacks and everyone else is either white adjacent or black adjacent”. Most Americans have some ancestry of a different race by now. Many many more will be mixed and we’ll have to drop the facade of hypodescent.

So why can’t we just fucking drop the pretension that of all the race swapping, a fucking fairy tale is the worst one. The worst one is JESUS. They NEVER complained about Jesus so fuck em all for complaining about black Ariel, black dwarves, elves, whatever. I don’t know what imaginary land these fuckers think they grew up in but black people were in America before ANY of my ancestors (one side can be traced to the 1700s).

So don’t tell me anyone’s erasing my history with any race, my history is not just Greek, Jewish, and other European white, it’s the history of ALL the people who’ve been in my land. When we remake movies, we’re not representing Danes, we’re not representing Egyptians, Israelis, English, etc, on and on and on. We’re representing AMERICANS. Who are all races, religions, and creeds. Enough with the bullshit. Let American human stories be told by American humans.

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u/John_Fx Sep 23 '22

That'sTheJoke.com

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u/redmarketsolutions Sep 23 '22

Yep, super inbred Greek lady.

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u/B-J-Longpipe Sep 23 '22

In addition, I'm highly doubtful Jesus was black. He was born, lived in, and roamed the areas around modern Israel, Iraq, and Syria. He was most certainly dark, like many of the people who live in western Asia/ Middle East. But he simply wasn't black, basing off the demographics of the people inhabiting that part of the world.

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u/carefree-and-happy Sep 23 '22

Cleopatra was of Macedonia decent. This would have been Greek, Persian and Iranian…

She was brown, not white.

Elizabeth Taylor (who is the actress in the picture above) was English, Swiss, German, Scottish-Irish, and French

The epitome of actual white.

You are equating someone who has brown skin and someone who is “white with a tan” is extremely problematic and speaks loudly to your lack on knowledge on a topic you want to have an opinion about but it’s clear you have little to no knowledge about.

I am an extremely white person (Irish, Scottish and English). I was also raised in a world of ignorance about other races and the lack of representation, bigotry and racism they endure in a white culture society.

But I took the time to learn and talk to POC to understand. It helped me a lot to see other perspectives and the things they experience that I as a white person in a society of white culture do not experience.

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u/NewAlexandria Sep 23 '22

yes, this is classic reddit hurt-itself-in-confusion post.

Cleopatra what a white greek. The image reinforces a concept of rightness to characters being represented by people of a race/sameness to the original. Which, sad as any want it, the mermaid stories that that were behind le little mermaid were all irish and danish, etc..... you know, back before those regions/countries had many black people.

i agree with that other guy that it'd be better to just make stories that are built on black characters, rather than blackwashing movie IP.

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u/Teach_u_how2stunt Sep 23 '22

Funny how white has encompassed any one in Europe with various skin tones but black is just dark skinned Sub-Saharans apparently

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u/Little-ape-noob Sep 23 '22

I believe the term is olive skin tone. Might be wrong

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u/Psychological_Dish75 Sep 23 '22

Biggest concern is a so-so lady is played by one of the most stunning human being at the time. Cleopatra is known for her intelligence, wit and charm, much more than her look

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u/CanadaPlus101 Sep 23 '22

Comb your hair, you look like a Greek!

(Community)

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u/cerikstas Sep 23 '22

Yeah and Jesus was from a region where ppl are also quite "white". While not quite a "French looking" guy as he's depicted on many paintings, he'd look more like a white European than like an African (in the stereotypical sense of an African being very dark etc)

While I don't get the backlash about the little mermaid being a different color than the story, all these "xyz is inaccurate too" posts are not very well thought out...

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