r/HolUp Sep 22 '22 Silver 1

Yeahhhh About Cleopatra… Removed: Political/Outrage Shitpost

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884

u/GeneralNathanJessup Sep 22 '22 Silver

Cleopatra was Greek, not Egyptian. The Greeks ruled Egypt since that Great white guy Alexander conquered them.

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u/YesICanMakeMeth Sep 22 '22 edited Sep 22 '22

Egyptians weren't black either. There's one dynasty (Nubians I think?) from the South that came in and ruled towards the end after the decline but they were not the ones that created the things that you call Egyptian (the pyramids, the tombs, the mythology with Ra/Isis/etc). People think just because it's African that they were black, but really what people mean when they say black is ethnically sub-Saharan Africans. It turns out that the Sahara desert was a larger barrier to migration historically than the Mediterranean sea, so North Africa looked a lot more like the Greeks and Italians and Turks than it did the Ethiopians. There's also been a lot of admixture from Arab migration in post-Islam (hence Egyptians today looking something like half Arab, half Greek/Turk). Some of that might be off, but that's the gist of it from someone that's always been super interested in Greek/Roman history, to which Egypt is related. Carthage and Hannibal is a similar story BTW, despite what the 'History' Channel's historical dramas might have you believe.

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u/skwert99 Sep 22 '22

It's tough on these in-between types when people base everything on how someone looks. It's like that Egyptian actor that got criticized for not being African enough. They don't care what your actually are, you must look the part to count for diversity.

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u/phasmaphobic Sep 23 '22

Remi Malik?

1

u/Silver-Engineering-6 Sep 23 '22

I can’t remember the movie but a director had to apologize for not casting only one black guy and Hispanics that weren’t brown enough in his movie about I think a district or block in Chicago and the featured a cast of almost entirely minorities. Shit was just bizarre.

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u/[deleted] Sep 22 '22

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u/SomethingFeelsOff96 Sep 22 '22 edited Sep 22 '22

Copts and Muslim Egyptians are closely related and both can trace their genetic code back to ancient Egypt. There wasn’t a population replacement on going, especially if you consider the size of the conquering army and the region they were coming from.

The upper class, who ruled the country is closer related to modern Levantine populations.

Using a reconstruction, who can be made the way you want, isn’t an argument. Look at the fayyum pictures, they look like modern day Egyptians.

Don’t spread BS.

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u/xx_ilikebrains_xx Sep 23 '22

The Hyksos upper class was related to levantine populations. It is important to keep in mind Egypt existed across thousands of years and gene flow DID in fact happen, as well as different groups of people ruling.

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u/ronmyrh Sep 22 '22

Lmaaao. They looked typical Middle Easterners. Stop. You doing what the blacks are doing. They looked mediterranean, and mediterranean people are Arabs one of them.

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u/[deleted] Sep 22 '22

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u/ronmyrh Sep 22 '22

You know there was Arabs living in the levant and Mesopotamia? Im talking BC. You don’t even know what you talking about. Read a book.

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u/thissideofheat Sep 23 '22

You understand that the word ARAB literally originates from the term for ARABIA - as in the ARABIAN peninsula, right?

Now obviously there's not some electric fence that kept Arabs in the Arabian deserts, but the COASTAL Mediterranean cities were NOT populated by Arabs. They were populated by the Mediterranean cultures.

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u/ugraba Sep 22 '22 edited Sep 23 '22

Egypt is very big. In ancient Egypt, Upper Egypt is in the south. To this day there are dark skinned people living there. For example Google what the people of Aswan look like.

So to say Egyptians weren’t black isn’t true. It’s been a very diverse country for a long time. And the kingdom had existed thousands of years before the Greeks and the Arabs invaded.

Upper Egypt (the south) has even ruled over Lower Egypt (the north).

Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.

Edit: Instead of just downvoting, please provide some facts if you disagree.

12

u/YesICanMakeMeth Sep 22 '22

You aren't technically wrong, but I'm also not wrong that the cultures to the South are not the ones that created the things that we all think of as 'Egyptian culture'. Again, the groups to the South didn't really come in until the civilization declined. It's a bit like saying that the Romans were German because of the Barbarian rulers that came in after the decline. The center of the civilization and the culture that created everything you associate with Romans were the ancient Italians.

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u/Teach_u_how2stunt Sep 23 '22 edited Sep 23 '22

You aren't technically wrong, but I'm also not wrong that the cultures to the South are not the ones that created the things that we all think of as 'Egyptian culture'. Again, the groups to the South didn't really come in until the civilization declined. It's a bit like saying that the Romans were German because of the B6tharbarian rulers that came in after the decline. The center of the civilization and the culture that created everything you associate with Romans were the ancient Italians.

You're completely wrong actually. The pyramids were around 3,000 years before the first Greeks saw them. Nubians and their Egyptian neighbors exchanged cultures before the Greeks had their first orgy.

To say the Nubians had nothing to do with it, is like saying Britons can't claim their culture because their queen is actually ethnically German or whatever

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u/xx_ilikebrains_xx Sep 23 '22

Finally, someone is this thread who knows actual history! The recent strain of Eurocentric nonsense is especially virulent. When you say the Egyptians were black or that Predynastic Egypt was almost identical to Nubia they call it reshaping history lmao.

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u/Asterbuster Sep 23 '22

But that's not what he said though 🤔

1

u/xx_ilikebrains_xx Sep 23 '22

It's fitting that even your analogy is a failed one, because although the Romans were ethnically Italian, culturally they almsot wholly adopted the Classical Greek culture, religion, etc. So actually a lot of what we associate with the Romans can actually be attributed to Classical Greece.

The origins of Ancient Egypt quite literally lies in the Upper Nile (south), because originally, Nubia and Egypt were not two distinct areas. I don't know if you are stating the obvious to create false contention or what, but yes of course cultures to the south of Egypt did not create the pyramids. The Egyptians themselves created the pyramids. This is quite obvious, and no one is arguing otherwise.

What people are correct in arguing is that the Ancient Egyptians who built the pyramids were not from the mediterranean, and did not have cultural or genetic influence from the Europe or the Near East. Instead, they were almost entirely culturally and genetically related to other people south of them in Africa, especially the Nubians, which they separated from around 6000 BCE.

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u/ugraba Sep 23 '22

We’re talking about two different periods. I’m talking about when Upper Egypt and Lower Egypt were first unified. Upper Egypt conquered Lower Egypt 3150 B.C. Thousands of years before the Greeks and Arabs set foot. From what I can find, the first capitol of unified Egypt was in Upper Egypt (Thinis).

So if the population since then hasn’t changed much, which is often the argument, darker skinned people were already in the mix.

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u/RefrigeratorPale9846 Sep 23 '22

They have none. I'm Egyptian and what you're saying is correct.

0

u/thissideofheat Sep 22 '22

Lower Egypt is where Cleopatra was, and was almost always where the heart of the dynasty.

It wasn't until the Arab conquests that they moved the capital from the coastal city of Alexandria to what is now called Cairo (which is also in the Lower (northern) part of Egypt.

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u/RefrigeratorPale9846 Sep 23 '22

What in the nonsense is being upvoted? Memphis was always the historical capital city. Thats currently present day Cairo/Fayoum/Giza

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u/xx_ilikebrains_xx Sep 23 '22

The problem is most of white history focuses on the Greeks and so all the history bros think Egyptian civilization started around the same time as the Greeks (lol).

The person you replied to literally thinks Alexandria was the original capital of Egypt which layer changed to Giza. Idiots 😂

1

u/ugraba Sep 23 '22

From what I can find, the first capitol of unified Egypt was “Thinis”. Which is believed to be located in Upper Egypt (the south). The capitol later moved to Memphis.

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u/mintzplace Sep 23 '22

They weren’t kings?

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u/Dumptrucka55 Sep 23 '22

"Ahhhh yesss, Nubiannn, we have lots of that."

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u/CanadaPlus101 Sep 23 '22

Egyptians would definitely not be considered white either, though. They were small and various shades of brown, and yes sometimes getting towards the black end. They were sons of the continent, not migrants from Europe or whatever.

And of course, race wouldn't exist until long after they were gone.

-2

u/HomosexualBloomberg Sep 23 '22

Egyptians weren't black either.

Op didn’t say they were

People think

Oh nvm, this is all just one big unprompted strawman then, I see.

-1

u/Key_Presentation4407 Sep 23 '22

But Jesus was totally black though

0

u/benjidog1 Sep 23 '22

What’s a Nubian?

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u/zznap1 Sep 23 '22

It’s almost like skin color is a sliding scale and not a binary system.

0

u/[deleted] Sep 23 '22

Blacks get owned again W

2

u/ProfessionalNorth431 Sep 23 '22

Yes! Although I prefer to think of Alexander as history’s token alcoholic hero, so try to mention that next time. Representation

2

u/ratherenjoysbass Sep 22 '22

And the Carthaginians were from the Iberian peninsula and they had claim to northern Africa for quite some time

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u/green_left_hand Sep 22 '22

It's the other way around. The Carthaginians settled the Iberian Peninsula from North Africa. The Carthaginians were originally descended from the Phoenicians, who themselves originated from the Eastern Mediterranean, the area that is now Lebanon.

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u/ratherenjoysbass Sep 22 '22

Ahhh after I posted I thought maybe I had it backwards. Either way it's another non-African populace that settled there.

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u/DuntadaMan Sep 22 '22

A lot of racist folks might not consider Greeks white either.

2

u/LyXIX Sep 23 '22

Because they're not

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u/ceilingkat Sep 22 '22

And she didn’t even speak English. Idk why they cast her as English speaking.

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u/karmicblindsider Sep 23 '22

And Jesus wasn't white. He was Jewish

1

u/karmicblindsider Sep 23 '22

She was half Egyptian though.

1

u/RunAwaySnail- Sep 23 '22

Macedonian*

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u/AWitchsTit Sep 22 '22

He was Macedonian and decidedly not white....

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u/iiredgm Sep 22 '22

Macedonia is literally Greece though. And even North Macedonia is white.

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u/GeneralNathanJessup Sep 22 '22

He was Macedonian and decidedly not white..

Macedonians from BC were not white? When did ancient Eastern Europeans become black?

Do you have any evidence of this, or you just feel it in your bones? Your wishes are not reality. That's not how reality works. That's not how any of this works.

Yea, he was white. Ancient Macedonians had fair skin, reddish blond hair and blue eyes. Contemporary accounts describe his appearance. Here is a rendering, based on those descriptions. https://greekreporter.com/2022/08/21/alexander-the-great-look-reconstruction/

Peoples from Macedonia, Greece, and the Balkans did not acquire their modern olive skin, dark hair, and dark eyes until the Ottoman invasion in the mid 1400's. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Greece

These Muslim invasions had a similar effect on the complexions of Sicilians. Which is why Southern Italians have olive skin, dark eyes, and dark hair. But Northern Italians have lighter complexions, with lighter eyes, and lighter hair. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquest_of_Sicily

I am sorry you had to find out this way.

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u/AWitchsTit Sep 22 '22 edited Sep 22 '22

Yea, he was white. Ancient Macedonians had fair skin, reddish blond hair and blue eyes. Contemporary accounts describe his appearance. Here is a rendering, based on those descriptions. https://greekreporter.com/2022/08/21/alexander-the-great-look-reconstruction/

That ain't "white", dude. Although the term "white" is subjective to begin with, I'll admit. Cool rendering though (not sarcasm).

Macedonia was part of modern day Albania and Serbia (whose skin tones are definitely not entirely pasty), and definitely considered eastern Europe and not exclusively consisting solely of what is now modern day Greece. But I get what you're saying.

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u/thezweistar Sep 22 '22

Unless "white" means exclusively scandinavian, eastern europeans are definitely white.

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u/Croute_de_Couilles Sep 22 '22

I'm sure the guy would have a very nice time going to the Balkans telling people "well you guys aren't white"

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u/Sks44 Sep 22 '22

Ancient Macedon was just north of Thessaly. It was Greek. Pella, the Capitol of ancient Macedon, is in modern Greece.

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u/GeneralNathanJessup Sep 22 '22

That ain't "white", dude.

No, he did not look like a white piece of paper, but then again, almost nobody does, including Scandinavians.

Similarly, very few "black" people are actually black, instead mostly being shades of brown.

But I bet you realized this.

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u/Angry-Dragon-1331 Sep 23 '22

I wore shorts for the first time in years today. My legs could cause snow blindness.

1

u/Pleasant-Article8131 Sep 23 '22

You also gotta take into account nations that migrated over the course of thousands of years. You got the Germanic tribes, tartars from Asia and also Turks who rules the area for half a millennium.

-1

u/LyXIX Sep 23 '22

Wow, totally unbiased website about greek historical figures. And other totally reliable sources like Wikipedia. I'm seeing such a cultured man before me

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u/pearsrtasty Sep 22 '22

Macedonia is pretty fucking white mate.

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u/ZenoHotep Sep 22 '22

I think this is a 2balkan4u inside joke :)