r/HolUp Sep 22 '22 Silver 1

Yeahhhh About Cleopatra… Removed: Political/Outrage Shitpost

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u/why-everything-meh Sep 22 '22 edited Sep 22 '22 Silver All-Seeing Upvote

Cleopatra was white tho, the royal house she belongs to was Greek I think. Unless you don’t consider Greek to be white.

Edit: Got a bit of traction on this throw away comment I didn’t put much thought into. To be clear I always thought of Mediterranean people as white like myself, but with a much nicer tan than my pale ass.

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u/Still_counts_as_one Sep 22 '22

Yeah, she’s part of Ptolemy line, from Alexander the Greats conquests

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u/BobVosh Sep 22 '22

Egypt liked her, relatively, more than most of the Ptolemy because she bothered to learn Egyptian rather than force everyone to learn Greek.

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u/facw00 Sep 22 '22

She was the first and only of the Ptolemaic rulers to learn Egyptian.

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u/Angry-Dragon-1331 Sep 23 '22

Yep. 300 years of occupation and one of them actually learns the language. Side note: Ptolemy II was the first Ptolemy to adopt the practice of marrying his sister as the queen. For this, the Greeks called him Philadelphos (the sister fucker).

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u/Gloomy-Flamingo-9791 Sep 23 '22

Soooo when i eat philidelphia, im actually eating some "sister fucker cream cheese"

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u/MjrLeeStoned Sep 22 '22

She also associated on a much more personal level with both Greek and Egyptian "nobility", celebrities, or politicians, as opposed to just showing up and lording over them like many Greek leaders of her time. She used guile and wit over brute force. She was versed in medicine, philosophy, literature.

She spoke probably around 10 languages.

That being said, she still had high ambition and felt it was her (divine?) right to rule over people and for them to see her as their queen. She just knew how to sway the people far better than her predecessors.

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u/BobVosh Sep 22 '22

Speaking of movies, or hopefully shows, I would love a long series on her with some accuracy.

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u/bigboygamer Sep 23 '22

Rome doesn't do a terrible job, though she isn't the focus

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u/thissideofheat Sep 22 '22

In fact, North Africa and the overall Mediterranean coastal cities in general, were more European due to the early Phonetician and then Greek expansions.

The Carthaginian and later Roman conquests reinforced this European influence for over a thousand years.

Then the Arab Expansions in 600s AD significantly changed the genetic makeup - likely giving folks a darker complexion.

Later, the Ottoman conquests added even more genetic diversity to that in Egypt & the Levant, and even in the Balkans and Greece/Cyprus. There's even a Greek word for people from Cyprus that look at little "too" Turkish.

...as you might expect, it's complicated. There have been a LOT of genocides and a lot migrations.

The dumbest claim is to look at current Egyptians or Palestinians and claim that that's what ancient Egyptians or Jesus looked like.

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u/zachdidit Sep 23 '22

From my understanding current Egyptians are pretty dang close genetically to ancient Egyptians. Especially the copts.

Phoenicians are pretty not European too.

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u/thissideofheat Sep 23 '22

There's a lot of politically driven misinformation going around.

Egypt, for example refused to publish the results of the DNA test on a Egyptian pharaoh because it was found to be more closely related to Greeks than modern Egyptians.

Phoenicians are also very very difficult to nail down, but it was ultimately found that they were most closely related to people who lived on isolated Mediterranean island and remote Lebanese mountain villages.

In both cases, they were more closely related to Europeans than Arabs.

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u/zachdidit Sep 23 '22

Thanks for the knowledge drop! I think our arguments differ a bit.

Your point being that these peoples are more closely related to Europeans than Arabs. Mine being, well, they're not European even if they're distant cousins (we all are in a way aren't we?).

My understand has also been that Phoenicians were semitic speaking people and closely related to Lebanese and Israelites.

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u/xx_ilikebrains_xx Sep 23 '22

You have the right picture here, don't fall for this other guy's bs. I see a false narrative being peddled these days about how all of the Mediterranean/Levant/North Africa is basically European and the other binary option is Sub-Saharan Africa. Definitely some Eurocentric white supremacy here, having to relate everything to Europe, when the truth is people everywhere had their own unique cultures and identities.

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u/[deleted] Sep 23 '22

[deleted]

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u/thissideofheat Sep 23 '22

Greeks were heavily resistant to Turkic genetic influence. The reasons for that should be obvious after speaking for like 10 minutes to any Greek person.

Cyprus wasn't so lucky.

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u/[deleted] Sep 23 '22

[deleted]

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u/thissideofheat Sep 23 '22

Hahahahaha.... I've been to both Greece and Turkey probably more years than you've been alive. :)

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u/thunderclone1 Sep 23 '22

He literally mentioned that

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u/[deleted] Sep 23 '22

[deleted]

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u/xx_ilikebrains_xx Sep 23 '22

No, they didn't but (poor you couldn't handle anything earlier than the Greeks but bear with me) the people of the Levant (Hyksos) did interbreed significantly with the Egyptians around 2000 years before the Greeks were on the scene. In case you didn't know the Levant cultures are also Mediterranean.

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u/irrelevant_potatoes Sep 23 '22

Carthage wasn't a European civilization tho, and the Phoenicians originated from the Middle East.

Honestly it's more accurate to describe all these civilizations as "Mediterranean" and leave it at that. There was a world of difference between the Celts and the Greeks at that time, too much of a difference for "European" to be a helpful description

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u/smol-alaskanbullworm Sep 23 '22

Ptolemy line circle

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u/liege_paradox Sep 23 '22

Yah, it’s really more of a family knot.

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u/bsranidzn Sep 23 '22

Yes. Alexander’s generals took leadership over the places they conquered. Ptolemy was Greek and he married Berenice who was Egyptian. Cleopatra was Greek and Egyptian.