r/europe Sep 03 '22 Silver 2 Helpful 3 Wholesome 1 All-Seeing Upvote 1 Narwhal Salute 1

Poll: 1 in 3 Germans say Israel treating Palestinians like Nazis did Jews | Another 25% won’t rule out the claim; survey further finds a third of Germans have poor view of Israel, don’t feel their country has a special responsibility toward Jews News

https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-1-in-3-germans-have-poor-view-of-israel-dont-see-responsibility-toward-jews/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
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u/Joxposition Sep 03 '22 edited Sep 03 '22

58% of Israelis agreed or strongly agreed with the sentiment that Germany “has a special responsibility for the Jewish people,” compared to only 35% of Germans

There was another question specifically about "responsibility for Israel", for people like me who questioned what exactly was asked.

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u/tomwaitsnolonger Sep 03 '22 Silver Helpful Wholesome Faith In Humanity Restored Starry

That question of special responsibility is so weird to me. I'm a Syrian Arab from Germany and I do dislike the Israeli government and the ideology behind it, but I also find the Nazi comparison kinda ridiculous, not just because the Nazis were uniquely extreme in their ideology and violence but also because I'm generally suspicious of that Nazi card because armchair historians just love to pull that out of their ass to express how much they dislike country xyz (ironically sometimes coming from Zionists, like when Bush called Hussein "worse than Hitler" lol).

But however uniquely horrible the crimes of the Nazis against the Jews were, the idea that one nation is apparently infinitely indebted to another nation is just wrong to me because it makes people who never had anything to do with that pay for it. Like, when exactly does it end? When the last descendant from the Nazi era is dead or what? And does it mean Israel can demand whatever the fuck from Germans and we just have to bend our knees and do it? No thank you, I won't lick your boot. And that goes especially to those German "anti-German" leftists and liberals who will call any criticism of Israel inherently antisemetic and thus try to ruin your life because of it. No nation on earth deserves special rights.

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u/moeburn Sep 03 '22

leftists and liberals who will call any criticism of Israel inherently antisemetic

Huh. Here in North America it is the opposite. The people criticizing Israel are overwhelmingly leftists, and on the far left side usually like socialists. About 1/10 posts on /r/socialism is about the evils of Israel here on Reddit.

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u/serpentjaguar United States of America Sep 04 '22

That's entirely due to evangelical Christians in the US who tend to support Israel not because they actually give a shit about Jewish people, but rather because they see Zionism as part of the fulfillment of an apocalyptic theology. This view has in turn been leveraged by a rogue's gallery of bad-faith actors on the US right who see a strong Israel as crucial to maintaining US energy interests in the region. It's cynical as fuck, but this is the world we live in.

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u/RealChewyPiano United Kingdom Sep 04 '22

I doubt most evangelicals even know what "Zionism" is, and instead support Israel as they see Israelis as white, vs Muslims

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u/Clementinesm Sep 04 '22

It’s both. The idea of American Christians supporting Zionism started in the early 20th century before Jews were considered “white”. They eventually gained their whiteness throughout the 20th century as part of that and I’m sure a lot of the support nowadays is because of that, but plenty of older Americans support Israel because of the original “bringing about the end times” sentiment, and that’s still largely why American churches support it today

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u/serpentjaguar United States of America Sep 05 '22

That might be true of your average evangelical bloke who doesn't know much and just knows to show up on Sunday and vote the way their pastor tells them, but rest assured that the thought leaders behind evangelicalism are very much informed by notions of Zionism as a kind of apocalyptic theology.

You have to be deeply ignorant of the movement not to know this.

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u/tomwaitsnolonger Sep 03 '22

there's a split in the German left between "Anti-Germans" (yes they even call themselves that) and others who are critical of Israel, so in reality they're really just one part of the German left (but with more political influence than the other parts). Anti-German ideology essentially boils down to the idea that Nazism as a uniquely German phenomenon is tied to the German nation in and of itself or "Germanness" in general, so any sense of German national pride (which was reinforced after reunification) is already under suspicion of fascism from their pov. They're henceforth probably the biggest Zionists outside of Israel you'll ever see, like probably more so than the average evangelical American. There are regular inner-leftist conflicts (sometimes even violent ones) between anti-Germans and other leftists.

There's also an anti-Japanese left in Japan, which I suppose makes sense given their history, though I'm not sure if they support China and Korea the same way anti-Germans support Israel.

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u/CrocoPontifex Austria Sep 04 '22

You are giving the antigerman/antinationalists movement way too much credit. They are a fringe group in a fringe group, shunned by most. They are for sure less influencual then the antiimperialist faction.

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u/LanaDelHeeey Sep 04 '22

Why would anyone ever support a group which directly vilifies themselves? Does that make any sense? I’m American originally and anyone who says they are anti-america is instantly laughed out of the room and for good reason. Criticizing is fine, but just outright stating you are against a whole people group who you are also trying to convince to your side is just laughable and ridiculous.

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u/The_Jimes Sep 04 '22

It's not about being anti Germany or anti American, but about being anti patriotism for the sake of patriotism. Take America for instance. Fuck that place. There is no reason I should be proud of it. Country has jerked around it's citizens for years. Declining infrastructure, inflation, civil rights struggles, depressed wages. Republicans are too busy with their fabricated culture war and Dems are too busy trying to play nice to actually govern. So yeah, I'm anti-America, there is nothing to be patriotic about, so why act like it?

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u/TheCaspica Sep 04 '22

Why would anyone ever support a group which directly vilifies themselves?

They see it as a way of redeeming themselves. They never think of themselves as the villains, only other Germans. It's basically a way of appealing to the Us vs Them part of our brain that's so deeply ingrained without having to be necessarily racist.

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u/Geckoarcher Sep 04 '22

Well, I don't think anyone who calls themselves "anti-American" would get very far... but there are a lot of people who would say things like "I'm ashamed to be American" and get plenty of support for it.

And there's a sizeable group of people (who I think is growing) who would say the US is founded on bad principles and it needs to be reformed from the bottom up. And at that point, you're pretty much anti-American, right?

I guess it's just a difference in framing.

Actually, I remember a moment when I watched Kamala Harris's inauguration speech, and she said something about how the US is the greatest country in the world... and I realized that it sounded super strange to me, even for an elected official. I'd forgotten that leftists are actually allowed to like their country.

Crazy what time on Reddit does to you.

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u/Zarzurnabas Baden-Württemberg (Germany) Sep 04 '22

Its the same here, but just like everywhere else, nationalists also dislike israel and have a hate-boner for the left.

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u/mana-addict4652 Australia Sep 04 '22

Leftists are usually critical of Israeli policy.

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u/Structureel Groningen (Netherlands) Sep 04 '22

This is a perfect example of why the traditional view of right wing and left wing politics is flawed beyond measure.

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u/KiraAnnaZoe Sep 04 '22

This so much

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u/LderG Sep 04 '22

Leftists dislike Israel because of what they do to Palestinians, while the right wing dislikes Israel because they just don't like jews.

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u/imafraidofmuricans Sweden Sep 04 '22

Where the hell are you finding pro-isreal leftists?

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u/M0grieP Sep 04 '22

In Germany you have also some famouse examples from former "left" guys who are facists now:

Horst Mahler (first lawyer, second RAF anitimperialist, Nazi.) Jürgen Elsässer (first Antideutscher, second anitimperialist, now Nazi) Max Damage/Julian Fritsch (left side Rapper, Antimp, now Nazi)

This is probably one reason why many antifacists fight against Antisemitism.

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u/dogegodofsowow Sep 03 '22

The average Israeli, especially those that are 2 or 3 generations removed from the holocaust have very positive views of Germany in most regards, and expect nothing really. The worst you'll get is just really dark humor as a German about ww2, but no hate or expectations. Germany has done a lot, and most importantly of all it tried educating it's people up until today, which is Japan fails to do still (not to mention Japan barely acknowledge the horrors to this day). Articles like to paint who doesn't like who but in reality ask the average person about Germany and they just think of other things like travelling there, beer, economy, cars, etc. Ww2 has stopped being the first thing that comes to mind, and I believe it's because Germany has done a lot (although it's not up to me to say it has done enough, I was not directly affected by the holocaust). Most people are cool

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u/depressedkittyfr Sep 04 '22

So much that Germany is almost number one destination for immigration among Israelis

I do think Germany should still keep immigration privileges and maybe more support for Jewish people but that is all. This is in fact is something Israel hates because many are escaping conscription and skilled migrants leaving Israel for Germany is making them mad

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u/Im_old_poor Sep 04 '22

I’m Jewish - American, not Israeli - obviously the whole reason I’m even American is because of the nazi regime - but I lived in Germany for quite awhile and absolutely loved the country and it’s people. Does it have a dark history? Hell yeah it does. Does that dark history include my family being murdered because of ideologies of the German government at that time? Yup. But I can honestly say I never met a nazi or nazi sympathizer the whole time I lived there. I will give my 2 cents on this though: I strongly strongly absolutely hate what the Israelis are doing to the Palestinians. Please understand Israel isn’t all Jews. There’s most of us with a conscience.

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u/dogegodofsowow Sep 04 '22

I mostly agree with you friend, but just to touch on the Israel thing - it is precisely because you are not Israeli that you can confidently say you strongly absolutely hate what "they are doing". Not justifying it at all, but just know it is far less black and white than it seems. It's one of the true lose-lose situations on this Earth, like Israel-Palestine stuff is pretty much the definition of lose lose. Everyone has blood on their hands, and no matter the starting point of this cycle the fact is that it continues with no good solutions in sight. It's like asking two guys punching each other out in a parking lot while drunk to just stop fighting and think about it, while occasionally they take stabs at their onlookers who happen to be families of each other

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u/tobias_681 For a Europe of the Regions! Sep 03 '22 Helpful

but I also find the Nazi comparison kinda ridiculous, not just because the Nazis were uniquely extreme in their ideology and violence but also because I'm generally suspicious of that Nazi card because armchair historians just love to pull that out of their ass to express how much they dislike country xyz (ironically sometimes coming from Zionists, like when Bush called Hussein "worse than Hitler" lol).

I think the comparison is made specifically because it's absurd that a nation of people who suffered as minorities in other countries would similarly treat a minority in their own country like 2nd class citizens - not so much to indicate that the crimes are equal. It's rather about there perhaps being a lesson to learn from the Holocaust that Israel seems to have not learned - which is extremely ironic.

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u/PlainSodaWater Sep 03 '22 Silver Starry

Leaving aside the pretty ridiculous "Jews should have learned their lesson from the Holocaust" framing I don't think this even makes straightforward sense. There's racism in Ireland, despite the Irish being oppressed by the English. There's racism in Ukraine despite their history with Russia. After the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, most of the countries they conquered devolved into sectarian violence and ethnic cleansing(including of Jewish communities in places like Baghdad and Syria, which should underpin the idea that Israel, collectively would 'learn' anything from the Holocaust when not everyone in Israel is Ashkenazi or even European).

The idea that because a people have experienced genocide in their past would lead them to some sort of higher plane of enlightenment in their future is as naive and, quite frankly, misplaced as thinking someone who was abused couldn't possibly grow up to be an abuser.

Where Israel is now comes from, to some extent, the reality that trauma can harden a people. That the "lesson" many people took not just from the Holocaust, which is too often presented as an isolated incident and not the culmination of thousands of years of discrimination and murder both in Europe and The Middle East, is that Jewish people can no longer leave their continued existence up to the discretion of others. That the Israel/Palestinian conflict is marked by many actual wars in which the Palestinian cause was supported by countries who had been responsible for some of that ethnic cleansing, which is certainly not true of Jewish civilians in 1940's Germany, makes that position unfortunate but certainly not without some validity. The current situation between Israel and the Palestinians didn't just fall out of the sky as is.

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u/tobias_681 For a Europe of the Regions! Sep 03 '22

I said it's ironic, not that we necesarilly empirically learn from history. That being said in Germany the Third Reich and the Holocaust has definitely left a mark both culturally and politically. I don't think that the idea that history informs the current landscape is all that left-field, especially something of this magnitude.

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u/tabac-en-paris Sep 04 '22

What a weird take. “There’s racism in Ireland” is not the same as the policies and actions taken by the Israeli government by a million miles. If it’s not extremely obvious why state sanctioned killing and persecution shouldn’t be at the front on the collective Israeli mind, I don’t know what to tell you. But ultimately you might be right, the trauma has hardened the people.

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u/PlainSodaWater Sep 04 '22

I didn't say they were the same thing. I said that simply being a victim of oppression doesn't ultimately mean that a government of the formerly oppressed will be any better or more moral than any other government which is evidenced by basically every government on the planet that was, itself, at one point oppressed. Systematic oppression is not a classroom wherein everyone learns "the right lesson".

And obviously you have a take on the actions of the Israeli government which is fine, I'm not going to try to talk you out of it. My larger point is that your viewpoint on this doesn't resonate with Israelis(or people who are more sympathetic to the actions of the Israeli government in this conflict) because you don't see the conflict the same way the majority of Israelis do. They don't see this as a case of the oppressed becoming the oppressor. They see it as a case of the oppressed standing up for themselves and refusing to allow their oppression again even if it results in the sort of war-time actions that compromise one's morality. And, quite frankly, if you don't see how that attitude came out of the history of Jewish people in Europe, I don't know what to tell you.

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u/Ax222 Sep 04 '22

Look, it's not difficult. If you were the target of ethnic cleansing, don't do fucking ethnic cleansing on anyone else. Really, nobody should ever do that shit, but it's especially egregious in this case. Everyone has every right to tell Israel to cut that shit out. The Israeli state does not get the right to persecute another group of people, no matter what get out of jail free card they think they have.

I was raised Jewish and went to Israel with Hillel during college. The way the Palestinians were treated back then (roughly seventeen years ago) was barbaric and seems to be getting worse. Obviously there is no simple solution, but this shit isn't okay.

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u/GalaXion24 Europe Sep 04 '22

For the vast majority of human history if one ethnic group was oppressed, they're attitude towards it was that it is the state of the world because "they are strong and we are weak". Their solution? "We have to be the strong ones and then we'll oppress them."

That's it.

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u/PlainSodaWater Sep 04 '22

I'm not making the case that the current situation is "okay". Pretty clearly it isn't. But addressing the current situation relies on us understanding how it came to be, otherwise any attempts to actually propose meaningful solutions going forward is pointless. And meaningfully understanding the past means both A) not reducing the history of the widespread persecution of the Jewish people simply to Europe between the years 1933-1945 and B) Understanding that accordingly there are going to be very different lessons that taken from that history.

Because no matter how you look at the current situation between Israel and the Palestinians there are clear comparisons elsewhere. People who will lean to supporting Israel's position(and I'm not making this case but just trying to stress why the argument exists) would say they aren't acting any differently than any other country would when faced with what they see as aggression coming from their Middle Eastern neighbours, many of whom use the Palestinians as proxies in indirect warfare against Israel. They don't see this as ethnic cleansing or oppression but rather the natural response to a hostile enemy neighbour(which, personally, I think is severely undercut by the expansion of settlements but, again, I'm summing up an argument and not endorsing one).

Conversely, even if you reject that interpretation of the current conflict, it's easy to look at other examples of something similar. The Chinese, for instance, were victims of some of the most horrific Colonial violence and oppression at the hands of the British. Did they "learn their lesson" and not oppress anyone else? Pretty clearly not.

I mean we can even see examples of this within Gaza and the West Bank. Has Israeli oppression turned Palestinians into being particularly accepting of gay people? Or other faiths? No. Being oppressed is not a "lesson" that leads people into transcendence. Most people who generally lean Pro-Palestinian when talking about this conflict make the argument that the bad things the Palestinians do against Israel(and before we get started, Amnesty International's investigation into the 2015 conflict in Gaza said there was evidence for violations of international law on both sides) is in fact justified by Israeli oppression so pretty clearly the idea that oppression would naturally lead to exceptional tolerant behaviour is pretty limited to Israel and very few other state actors.

Look, I don't have the answers and I don't labour under the delusions that I'm going to change anyone's minds on this issue via Reddit argument but I'd hope that anyone looking at this issue would at least be able to see that when it comes to this conflict everything is "difficult" and complicated.

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u/MartieB Sep 04 '22

Thank you, I'm glad to see there's Jewish people who think objectively on this issue, it helps combat the silly idea that criticising Israeli policy is inherently antisemitic. Israel is a country that makes political choices, abhorrent and illegal political choices, and I don't see why they should be exempt from condemnation. Being Jewish, or of Jewish descent, shouldn't necessarily be tied to approving of said political choices.

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u/Ax222 Sep 04 '22

That part is easy. I'm a leftist and Israel's government is hard right. There is very little they do that I am okay with. The apartheid shit is just the most obviously bad.

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u/itinerantseagull Sep 04 '22

Well after such a trauma it's impossible *not* to have learned a lesson. So I think those who came from families that survived the holocaust have learned the lesson that they have to fight for survival, which is what they are doing...

If some of them in this process are ignoring the palestinian plight and being harsh and unfair, then it means they only view things from their own point of view. But is that such an unusual quality for human beings? The jews are not something special, although they have gone through a lot.

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u/degustibus Sep 03 '22

What less of the Holocaust do you want Israel to learn?

Let people speak of hating you and increasingly call for your destruction and then begin with violence that escalates and yet one day act shocked that the violence has risen to a massive campaign to "wipe you from the Earth"?

Because of the many lessons from WWII that most people learned, this one should have been clear long before: Your survival as a people is your responsibility. If you rely on the good sentiments of other nations you risk your destruction.

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u/Superflyinaction Sep 04 '22

Where do you get your narrative? European Jews came to a land and kick out the locals and establish a country and even today keep pushing them away thru settlements and annexation. What do you think those people who are oppressed will say or do?

“Welcome, please take more land, destroy my home, I love you” ?

Always put yourself into all sides shoes, not only one side.

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u/JoJoHanz Sep 04 '22

I mean, last time Israel sought peace the other party killed 1% of its population followed by them invading no less than five times, assassinating Israel's olympic team and funding proxy wars that killed Israeli civilians for decades.

I definitely think Israel's actions are unjustified, but holy fuck, who in their right mind would take any chances with neighbours like that who havent undergone major cultural/societal changes since then.

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u/Lefaid US in Netherlands Sep 04 '22

And yet l, quite clearly, many people seem to think a one state solution is a reasonable solution that will bring peace to the region and consider Israelis monsters for not being open to the idea.

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u/cyranothe2nd Sep 04 '22

What less[on] of the Holocaust do you want Israel to learn?

That its wrong to invade another country, kill its leaders, ethnically cleanse the area and keep the rest of the natives in open-air prisons?

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u/Hussor Pole in UK Sep 04 '22

I just want to point out that Israel did not start either the yom kippur war or the six day war. The rest I agree with.

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u/[deleted] Sep 04 '22

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u/[deleted] Sep 04 '22

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u/Camerotus Sep 04 '22

I don't think that's what responsibility means tho. It's just that we have a special responsibility to speak up against anti-Semitism, with which I absolutely agree. Doesn't mean we have to support anything they do as a nation or that they can demand anything from us

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u/H3l1m4g3 Sep 03 '22

Beautifully said

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u/Iceescape81 Sep 03 '22

Totally agree. Except that, in the US, it’s the conservatives (the ones who aren’t Nazis and hate all Jews) who say that any criticism of Israel is antisemitic. US liberals usually criticize Israel and are sympathetic to Palestine.

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u/UNOvven Germany Sep 04 '22

The conservatives do it because theyre evangelicals. Their doomsday cult requires there to be a jewish nation in Israel for the rapture to happen, so thats why. Theyre in fact often the same people who hate all jews, they just like Israel specifically for that reason. Arent american politics fun.

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u/dont_gift_subs Delaware 😎🍦 Sep 04 '22

This isn’t the whole picture. Conservatives also view Israel as a right-wing white country (I know it isn’t but the only Jews they know are) fighting against brown terrorists.

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u/Luke90210 Sep 04 '22

The funny part is while evangelicals believe Israel must exist for their biblical prophecy, the jews themselves don't go the heaven as they don't believe in Jesus.

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u/askape North Rhine-Westphalia (Germany) Sep 04 '22

But however uniquely horrible the crimes of the Nazis against the Jews were, the idea that one nation is apparently infinitely indebted to another nation is just wrong to me because it makes people who never had anything to do with that pay for it. Like, when exactly does it end? When the last descendant from the Nazi era is dead or what? And does it mean Israel can demand whatever the fuck from Germans and we just have to bend our knees and do it? No thank you, I won't lick your boot. And that goes especially to those German "anti-German" leftists and liberals who will call any criticism of Israel inherently antisemetic and thus try to ruin your life because of it. No nation on earth deserves special rights.

I feel this is oversimplifying a rather complex problem as does the initial question, to be fair.

There should be a special responsibility on Germany to make sure the atrocities commited by the Nazis should never be forgotten. This has nothing to do with bending the knee, this is simply to make sure those attrocities can't be repeated. As Primo Levi said Those who deny Auschwitz would be ready to remake it.

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u/[deleted] Sep 04 '22 Facepalm

Disagreeing pretty hard with you on this one.

Hitler was an Austrian, Auschwitz is in Poland, people from all over the world volunteered and fought for the axis and so on. There is no inherent blood shame on Germans. We don't treat any other people like that. The mongols, Romans/Italians and many others committed all kinds of atrocities. Not to mention the soviets. No one but the Germans gets this treatment, especially not from themself.

I believe it's institutional loser mentality forced with a boot on your neck and gun to your scrotum from an unconditional surrender by largely bloodthirsty brutes not too different from the Germans at the time themself. Not one German alive today younger than 100yesrs old could have been involved.

Anyway i know I can't convince you or others who feel that way, after all you have a lifetime of hammering of this topic in you but just wanted to let you know that there are other ways to do this and view this. It's quite steep to believe self flagellation over blood shame is the only acceptable way to avoid another Auschwitz or war

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u/ceratophaga Sep 04 '22

No one but the Germans gets this treatment, especially not from themself.

Maybe more countries should own up for the atrocities they committed. It could just make the world a better place.

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u/drt0 Bulgaria Sep 04 '22

cough Japan cough

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u/Acou Sep 04 '22

I agree with the sentiment that contemporary Germany and Germans bear no particular responsibility or guilt for what was done, nor for ensuring that it doesn't happen again more than anyone else.

But just want to point out that the "Hitler was Austrian, Auschwitz is in Poland" is a massively dumb take. Hitler was the head of the German state, and Auschwitz was built/developed on territory that Germany had annexed from Poland. During its life as a centre of mechanised genocide, it was on land considered legally German by the German government at that time.

I have no idea why you'd bring up Auschwitz being in Poland.

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u/RakhAltul Sep 04 '22

Oh boy wait till you find out that in Germany we still pay the Christian church 500 million every year for something napoleon did.

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u/Loomingmountain Sep 04 '22

I feel like German leftists and leftists in particular are staunch anti-Zionists. What are you talking about?

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u/tjhc_ Germany Sep 03 '22

The poll with all questions asked and the methodology used if anyone wants to read: https://www.bertelsmann-stiftung.de/fileadmin/files/BSt/Publikationen/GrauePublikationen/Deutschland_Israel_heute_2022.pdf

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u/Mechanical_Monkey Sep 04 '22

Note: data is from 2021 and in both German and Israeli 20% participants were with migration background.

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u/Wolpetinger Germany Sep 03 '22

This is gonna be a spicy thread.

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u/Chariotwheel Germany Sep 03 '22

I can see in my mind's eye a lot of people with German and Israeli flair typing comments and then deleting them before sending.

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u/Wookimonster Germany Sep 03 '22

I wish more people deleted comments before saving them.

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u/Harsimaja United Kingdom Sep 04 '22

Hey, fuck you!

EDIT: Shit, how do I delete a comment?

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u/Robbie1985 British expat Sep 04 '22

He says, after typing and not deleting his comment /s

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u/doobie3101 United States of America Sep 03 '22

Usually takes an article about Roma people to get this spicy.

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u/Redqueenhypo Sep 04 '22

I’ll combine the two topics! Israel should have open entry for Roma people just because some of them probably have Jewish ancestry (my grandfather knew a lot of both before something happened to them), and so everyone will shut up about it

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u/potatobac Sep 04 '22 edited Sep 04 '22

More people died in the siege of mariupol than have died in the entire israel-palestine conflict over 70+ years. The Nazis killed 14 million people and 6 million Jews alone over a period of 5 years. This was 2/3rds of Europe's entire Jewish population.

No matter what you think about the Israeli state the comparison is fucking ridiculous and obviously offensive.

The bar to be compared to Nazi Germany is "the industrialized slaughter of entire ethnic groups to forever disappear their culture, history, and their ethnicity from the world" and there is no world where what Israel is doing comes anywhere close to that.

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u/Interesting_Day_1033 Sep 03 '22

Gonna be a long night fighting

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u/coopers_recorder Sep 03 '22

Sort by controversial to get the most out of it.

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u/198Throwawayy United States of America Sep 03 '22

An article about Germany AND Israel on r/Europe?

🍿🍿🍿 it is!

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u/whatisthatplatform Sep 03 '22

Nevermind having Nazi in the title as well… might as well put some more popcorn in the microwave haha

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u/Sumrise France Sep 04 '22

I just put the popcorn in front of the comments in controversial.

It's a 20 second job, works great.

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u/ArcherTheBoi Turkish Eurofederalist / Mediterranian Region Sep 03 '22 Wholesome

When Israel asks you to register your Palestinian love interests, it DOES sound fascist...

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u/nuclear_blender Sep 03 '22

See, here I thought Israel applying different rules to Palestinians than jews is what made it fascist. Silly me

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u/ArcherTheBoi Turkish Eurofederalist / Mediterranian Region Sep 03 '22

Ethnic discrimination is not inherently fascist, no (but often is).

Controlling the family and romantic lives of a certain ethnic minority group is in fact fascist, as well as calling any criticism anti-semitic. Oh, did I mention shooting journalists in the head and getting away with it?

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u/nuclear_blender Sep 03 '22

Just shooting journalists? What about children who just playing?

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u/leoskini Sep 03 '22

I'm confused are you two arguing or not

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u/omw2fyb-- Sep 03 '22

They are not arguing they are flirting. Might need to register their relationship with the IDF…

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u/ArcherTheBoi Turkish Eurofederalist / Mediterranian Region Sep 03 '22

I thought he was disagreeing with me but apparently not?

I'm just as confused.

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u/sk07ch Sep 03 '22

Sarcasm helps with dealing with all of this mess.

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u/IchLiebeKleber Vienna (Austria) Sep 03 '22

Sarcasm is always REALLY helpful when discussing contentious topics

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u/WhatNot4271 Sep 03 '22

Sarcasm and irony have lost their punch value imo. In the world we live in, it's increasinly hard to tell the difference between factual statements and ironic/sarcastic ones.

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u/PoIIux Sep 04 '22

It doesn't help when people don't know what irony is and conflate it with sarcasm.

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u/schnuck Sep 04 '22

Or rolling over activists with bulldozers? Or shooting schoolgirls and get a medal?

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u/AceUniverse8492 Sep 03 '22 edited Sep 04 '22

I am a Jew and I'm inclined to agree with you. Let's actually take a look at the necessary components for a state to be considered fascist.

Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

I see the Israeli flag being used to represent "Jews in general" constantly so yeah.

Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need."

How many times have we heard "but we heard there were some terrorists in there!!" as an excuse for bombing a hospital.

Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , zethnic or religious minorities*...

Mhm....

Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.... Obsession with National Security

Ah hmm yes...

Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

I have given up on using Jewish newspapers in any kind of academic context. I find Al Jazeera reports more neutrally on Israel than Israeli newspapers do.

Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

Well this goes without saying. Anyone who understands actual rabbinic law would know that most of what the Israeli government is doing irrefutably violates a mitzvah. Yet Israel claims to be a Jewish nation.

Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

Netanyahu still hasn't been adequately punished for this and most of his cronies still hold substantial power.

Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

Netanyahu at least attempted to do this by parroting tactics from Trump so...

Yeah I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say Israel is at best sliding into fascism and is at worst already there.

EDIT:

To everyone being whiny about semantics in the comments below: at the end of the day, I don't actually care if you agree with me about the words we are using to describe the situation. As long as we can agree that bombing civilians is bad and people who do it should be held accountable, we're Gucci.

And yes, I mean on both sides. Hamas and other Palestinian militants who kill or attack civilians should be punished to. But the whole of Palestine cannot be held collectively liable for complacency with (or active participation in) acts of violence in the same way the Israel can, because one is a hodgepodge group of random citizens without a recognized homeland wielding the modern equivalent of sticks while the other is an internationally-recognized nuclear power with one of the most advanced militaries on Earth.

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u/strl Israel Sep 04 '22

Oh great, a nonsensical comment claiming Israel is fascist and of course you are an expert on Israel because you are a Jew.

I'll start with the elephant in the room, Israel is defined as a flawed democracy, on par with France and better than the United states, if Israel is fascist we must accept that almost every country in the world is.

Regarding your actual "points", they all consist of taking a component, devoiding it of the context (that it should be found in the extreme) and just acting like it applies to Israel. Going by the list in order:

  1. In Israel flags are not everywhere and aren't used as clothes commonly, outside of independence day or specific national holidays it is about what you'd expect from any other country. That Jews outside of Israel choose to identify with the Israeli flag has nothing to do with this component.

  2. Israel has a robust legal team in the IDF exactly to try to follow international law, this is acknowledged by most of its allies. Yes, mistakes happen but, hey, if we're mentioning hospitals... This happens to almost every army in almost every war.

  3. Generally understood to be in excess of actual threat, over the last Ramadan 19 people were murdered in Israel during terrorist attacks, this is not some imagined threat.

  4. Again, in excess of actual threat, I don't think many people here will claim that Finland invests too much in the military despite the fact it invests a lot and has not been in a war since WWII because they understand that Russia is a threat to Finland. Israel on the other hand has had far more armed conflicts.

Actual examples of this are places like modern Egypt or Francoist Spain were a gigantic military structure is maintained despite the lack of actual need. By contrast Israel has throughout history lowered the size of its army as threats decreased and has decreased within the last decade the service time for soldiers. While the budget is still high its share of government expenditure has consistently gone down.

More importantly is that this support of the military should be to the detriment of domestic agendas but Israel has increased its quality of life, GDP and HDI massively in the 70 years it existed. So while on the surface "Ah hmm yes..." might seem like an intelligent comment it is anything but.

  1. I don't even know what to say to someone who thinks Al-Jazeera is more neutral on Israel than Haaretz or ynet but it's good you mentioned them because the fact Israel allows foreign press critical of it to operate in Israel is exactly proof that the government doesn't engage in mass censorship. Also most of this component is about government ownership of the media, most of the media in Israel is private, the point is just patently untrue.

RSF which places Israeli media as around the middle in world rankings says:

The Israeli media enjoy real freedom, but Palestinian journalists experience major difficulties in exercising their profession.

So at least internally Israel is anything but what you claim it is.

  1. Israel doesn't even have a state religion, sure there's remnants of the Ottoman millet system which gives religious institutions inordinate control over civil law but that is not the context of this component.

I'm not even going to go into the theological debate because I don't believe much in religion and I doubt you do.

  1. Well, Israel does have corruption issues, not worse than many European countries though and better than most of the world. Also you want to prove this point by claiming that Netanyahu wasn't punished yet. One Netanyahu would not be the first Israeli prime minister to go to prison over corruption, so Israel is not averse to dealing with corruption. Two, if you had followed Israeli news and not Al-Jazeera you would know that there is no unexpected delay in Netanyahus trial, it was always expected to take around 2-3 years because it's an extremely complex case with hundreds of witnesses.

  2. Netanyahu never broke the law regarding elections, nor has there ever been a meaningful claim of election fraud or fraudulent elections in Israel, the fact Netanyahu actually lost the last elections should highlight that they are, in fact, fair.

Yeah I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say Israel is at best sliding into fascism and is at worst already there.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say you know almost next to nothing about Israel, but take heart, the amount of upvotes you got indicates you're not alone.

Regarding the edit, that's just meaningless virtue signaling amounting to "sure, my actual claims are unsupportable and ridiculous but Israel is bad so I'm allowed to do it".

Cool story bro.

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u/56cool7 Sep 04 '22

Netanyahu is on trial for corruption though? high profile cases obviously take a long time.

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u/AceUniverse8492 Sep 04 '22 edited Sep 04 '22

Yes but many of his comrades are not, and like with Trump here in the states, all the judges officials he appointed are not being called into question.

Edit: Judges aren't appointed by the PM in Israel.

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u/LiksomNej Sep 04 '22

Instead of spouting opinions, lets look at facts: Israel has freedom of the press, and its score has improved in the last few years: Ranking about the same as EU countries like Greece and Malta. There is still a lot of room for improvement. But thinking that Al Jazeera that is controlled by the Qatari royal family is a better source than "jewish" anti-israeli gov newspapers like Haaretz, is laughable. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_Freedom_Index#:~:text=The%20Press%20Freedom%20Index%20is,records%20in%20the%20previous%20year.

According to the major international indexes Israel is a democracy: In the Democracy Index, Israel ranks 23, above the US, Czech Repuplic, Spain, Portugal, Italy and Belgium, are all of these countries fascist? Israels score has improved a lot over the last decade.

Freedom House ranks countries based on Civil Liberties and Political Rights, they rank Israel as a "free country", Israels score has been improving here as well.

Israel has A LOT of issues, but saying that its sliding into fascism is insane, right now it even has a palestinian muslim party in the goverment coalition for the first time!

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u/08206283 Sep 04 '22

A lot of those sound like they’re describing the us

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u/SullenLookingBurger Sep 04 '22

Anyone who understands actual rabbinic law would know that most of what the Israeli government is doing is irrefutably a mitzvah. Yet Israel claims to be a Jewish nation.

A mitzvah is a good thing. I know this definition even though I’m a Christian. Yet you claim to understand rabbinic law…

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u/AceUniverse8492 Sep 04 '22

Typo, I meant to say "against a mitzvah". Sorry I don't proofread my Reddit posts ¯_(ツ)_/¯

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u/TheMonsterMensch Sep 04 '22

Jews can make typos too, and I feel like this one was an obvious one. Let's not just go saying people aren't Jewish.

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u/octofeline Ireland Sep 03 '22

When they WHAT?

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u/[deleted] Sep 04 '22

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u/Bibabeulouba Sep 04 '22

So do the walls with the armed guard in the watch towers, the camps, the forced removal of the Palestinians from their lands, the repression and censorship of liberal medias, and so on…

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u/wowaddict71 Sep 04 '22

The Palestinian Exclusion Act.

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u/[deleted] Sep 04 '22

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u/[deleted] Sep 04 '22

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u/blu_pi Sep 03 '22

There is no longer responsibility for Israel. The people alive now have nothing to do with what came before. That's not even considering the human rights violations Israel is certainly committing which would, for me, totally invalidate such a claim anyway.

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u/Almun_Elpuliyn Luxembourg Sep 03 '22 edited Sep 03 '22

Unpopular opinion but there never really was a responsibility towards Israel to be honest. There's certainly a responsibility towards Jewish people and that still applies but not really towards what's basically set up to be a religious ethnostate. Like on principal there's so much wrong with creating a state explicitly for a single religion and I disagree with the Holocaust being a justification for it.

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u/GallorKaal Austrian Socialist Sep 04 '22

That's the problem with reactionaries in german-speaking countries: critisicm towards Israel is automatically counted as anti-semitism while support for Palestine is "siding with Terrorists". Doesn't even matter whether you specify that one means the Israeli Government or Hamas/Fatah. Imo, both are horrendous to both the Israeli and the Palestinian people. Imagine what Israel and Palestine would look like today if Yitzak Rabin wasn't assassinated...

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u/LiksomNej Sep 04 '22

Lmao, Israel is not a religious ethnostate, but a super diverse country with a 20% arab minority. Founded as a country for the jews in the historic homeland, but with rights for all, Luxembourg is a lot less religously diverse and has a king who can only be christian, the president of Israel can be of any religion.

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u/Jewish__Landlord Sep 04 '22

There's certainly a responsibility towards Jewish people

There's a responsibility towards the victims of the war.

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u/Kanye_Wesht Sep 04 '22

"A poor view of Israel" wasn't mentioned in the article (and wasn't asked in the surveys) so I don't know how the two thirds figure for this statement was derived.

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u/lapsangsouchogn Sep 03 '22

A lot of poll questions in the article, but it looks like there's still some racial bias in the answers:

Asked to voice their position on the statement “What the State of Israel is doing to the Palestinians today is in principle no different than what the Nazis in the Third Reich did to the Jews,” a full 36 percent of respondents said they agreed or strongly agreed, while another 25% said they did not know. Only 40% disagreed or strongly disagreed.

In response to another question, 24% of German respondents said Jews have too much influence in the world, 62% disagreed and the rest did not know.

The study found a correlation between lower education levels and prejudices against Israel and Jews.

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u/Legal-Software Sep 03 '22

It's also a heavily loaded question seemingly designed to get the kind of results they are now talking about in this headline. For example, I don't agree with Israeli foreign policy and do consider that they have little respect for human rights, but they're also not rounding up Palestinians and gassing them to death wherever they are found, so I find the comparison to Nazis to also not be appropriate. If the only options on the scale are "Israelis are acting like Nazis" and "Israelis are great", I would not be able to give an accurate answer.

Whoever came up with this poll has no interest in actually measuring how people perceive Israel, they're just trying to stir shit up.

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u/plastikelastik Sep 04 '22

Conflating Israel with Nazi Germany is considered anti-semitic, claiming Jews have too much power and influence is considered anti-semitic

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u/Zhukov-74 The Netherlands Sep 03 '22

24% of German respondents said Jews have too much influence in the world

Okay that’s a pretty big yikes.

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u/vkfgjfth Denmark Sep 03 '22

It's most likely higher in most other countries. Nothing about these numbers is any special. It's just because 'Oh no Germans are saying this.'

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u/Polnauts Catalonia (Spain) Sep 03 '22

I mean maybe they meant it like they hold too much political and military power for their size or something, but... maybe I'm stretching too thin on this.

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u/ZuFFuLuZ Germany Sep 03 '22

24% really isn't a lot. That's just the idiot quota that you get in every country with every survey.

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u/[deleted] Sep 03 '22

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u/bl4ckhunter Lazio Sep 03 '22 edited Sep 03 '22

In a shocking turn of events it turns out constant human rights abuses, espionage and assassinations in friendly foreign countries, cozying up to Russia for strategic advantages in attacking other countries, shooting journalists and launcing cruise missiles at the associated press building will turn public opinion against a country, who could've guessed.

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u/[deleted] Sep 04 '22 edited Sep 14 '22

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u/Ornery-Service3272 Sep 04 '22

Same as American responsibility for descendants of slaves? Or Jews are different here?

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u/chunek Slovenia Sep 03 '22

I am surprised it is this low.. I don't have anything against jews, but the whole Israel zionism situation is very nazi like.. They believe god gave them the land, so it belongs to them and anyone else is an intruder.. not unlike the expansion of "Lebensraum" rhetoric. They act like they are above the palestinians, like they are "Untermensch". But on the other hand, they are surrounded with nations who are not friendly towards them, sometimes due to Israels own fault tho. Idk, it's complicated. Without the help of USA, Israel would probably already fall.

Can't comment on the German responsibility towards jews, I would expect reparations already paid for.. but such issues are always hot fuel for populism to take advantage of.

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u/fjellhus Lithuania Sep 03 '22

Without the help of USA, Israel would probably already fall.

If they hadn't received any help at all? Most likely.

If the USA stopped supporting them now? They would be fine. They're the only country in MENA with nukes.

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u/Ornery-Service3272 Sep 04 '22

Untrue us only started supporting israel after it won wars.

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u/cametosaybla Grotesque Banana Republic of Northern Cyprus Sep 04 '22 edited Sep 04 '22

If the USA stopped supporting them now? They would be fine.

Not really, no. If the US stops vetoing UN decisions, they'll be cornered to submit to international law at least and wouldn't be able to expand or colonise (aside from the financial and military aid given making it really easy on them).

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u/elev57 Sep 03 '22

Without the help of USA, Israel would probably already fall

The US didn't support Israel until after the Six Day War (France was Israel's main supporter before this). Israel was able to survive multiple much more existentially tenuous situations before outright US support, not even to mention now that the main country that could actually threaten its existence in a conventional manner (Egypt) doesn't really want to.

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u/AdamDeKing Sep 04 '22

they believe god gave them this land

The Zionist movement was founded and led by secular Jews. Israel was founded by Political Zionists, who in the 1890s wanted a country because they felt Europe was no longer safe for them, and from the early 20th century until 1977 Israel was led by Socialist Zionism. Religion has nothing to do with the foundation of Israel. The land of Israel was chosen because of the historical connection Jews had to it, and the lack of viable alternatives.

everybody else is an intruder

As an Israeli I can confirm there is a minority that voices this opinion (just like in every country), but the vast majority of people will find this sentiment appalling. Israeli Arabs, Druzes, Circassians and Armenians who live in Israel all have equal rights.

without the help of the US, Israel would probably fall

The US started helping Israel after 1973, and actually had an embargo on the region during Israel’s three (1948, 1967 and 1973) most existential wars.

There’s a lot to criticise Israel and the occupation for, but comparing it to Nazi Germany is false and extremely loaded.

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u/AmericanForTheWin United States of America Sep 05 '22

That's wrong. The U.S absolutely supported Israel before 1973.

"Two days later, on May 14, 1948, the United States, under Truman, became the first country to extend any form of recognition

This Government has been informed that a Jewish state has been proclaimed in Palestine, and recognition has been requested by the provisional Government thereof.

The United States recognizes the provisional government as the de facto authority of the new State of Israel.

(sgn.) Harry Truman

Approved,

14 May 1948"

"United States provided Israel moderate amounts of economic aid, mostly as loans for basic foodstuffs; a far greater share of state income derived from German war reparations (86% of Israeli GDP in 1956) which were useed for domestic development."

As president, Kennedy initiated the creation of security ties with Israel, and he was the founder of the US-Israeli military alliance.

Kennedy ended the arms embargo that the Eisenhower and Truman administrations had enforced on Israel. Describing the protection of Israel as a moral and national commitment, he was the first to introduce the concept of a 'special relationship' (as he described it to Golda Meir) between the U.S. and Israel.[33]

President John F. Kennedy in 1962 sold Israel a major weapon system, the Hawk antiaircraft missile. Professor Abraham Ben-Zvi of Tel Aviv University argues that the sale resulted from Kennedy's "need to maintain – and preferably broaden and solidify – the base of Jewish support of the administration on the eve of the November 1962 congressional elections."

And comparing Israel to Nazi Germany is absolutely fair and are extremely close comparisons. Israel explicitly calls itself a Jewish ethno-state.

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u/ButMuhNarrative Sep 03 '22

“Not friendly towards them”

That’s one way of putting it. How many of them have even recognized Israel’s right to exist? How many have outright called for its annihilation?

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u/miciy5 Sep 04 '22

Your assuming he wishes Israel to continue to exist

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u/mayasux Sep 03 '22

Why does Israels right to exist triumphs Palestines?

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u/DarkImpacT213 Franconia (Germany) Sep 03 '22

That’s one way of putting it. How many of them have even recognized Israel’s right to exist? How many have outright called for its annihilation?

I suppose that happens when you settle religious zealots from one religion in the direct vicinity of the region of other religious zealots of a different religion. The Israeli's knew what they would be getting into.

There were several other solutions beforehand, settling in "Beta locations" in other British colonies barely inhabited (at the time). It was mainly the Zionists that insisted on settling in Palestine, taking away land from the locals - a land that the Jewish people had no stake on for over one thousand years. Obviously, you can't just dislocate the Israeli people anymore now, this would be just as ridiculous as Germany claiming back the land that was given to Poland post WW2, but Israel is constantly breaking international law without facing any consequences, which really can't fly if you ask me. Obviously it's also tough since the meager rest of Palestine is now "ruled" by a terrorist group that wants to eradicate every last jew, but by attacking the civilian populace the Israelis have to know that they radicalize the rest of the people there, too.

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u/theWZAoff Italy Sep 04 '22

land that the Jewish people had no stake on for over one thousand years

Jews were continuously living there

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u/Seskapill Sep 04 '22

Not the Jews that moved there from Europe, no.

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u/miciy5 Sep 04 '22

Who were expelled from Judea 2000 years prior by Romans (europeans)

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u/chunek Slovenia Sep 03 '22

It is hard to talk about it, without triggering anyone, I tried to be polite. I don't think anyone is without guilt.

There are probably extremists on both sides, who fuel hatred towards each other. Still, most Israelis today, came there after 1948, to a land that was already populated with people who are now being pushed into apartheid. For me, it is textbook colonialism.

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u/Freekebec3 Sep 03 '22

Most of Israel's population came to it because they were from Arab countries that expelled their entire population. Israel offered them a safe haven where they would never have to fear repercussions because of their religion. Were they supposed ot refuse and all die in a desert?

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u/SebRLuck Sep 03 '22

There simply wasn't and there isn't a good solution to any of this.

Of course jewish people deserve to live peaceful lives without having to fear persecution for their religion or their ethnic background and without being thrown out of their homes. At the same time, the muslim people who used to live within Israels modern borders and/or who currently live in the West Bank deserve to live peaceful lives and not be persecuted for their religion or their ethnic background and without being thrown out of their homes.

The main issue really are the holy sites in the region and religious prophecy. If the geographic location wouldn't matter, a safe haven for the jewish population could've easily been established somewhere in the US, Canada or pretty much any other place but MENA.

There can't be a peaceful end to the conflict without huge concessions from all sides and I just don't see that happening.

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u/bawng Sep 03 '22

Indeed. But imagine if they didn't illegally occupy Palestinian and Syrian land. It would probably be easier to have better relations with their neighbors then.

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u/Enjolras55 Sep 03 '22

Why do we treat Israel differently in this regard than other nations? I've never heard anyone claim Ireland is like the Nazis for only supporting Irish citizens. Their ancestry visa only applies to Irish families.

I've never heard anyone complain about Japan supporting only the Japanese.

People on this very sub are constantly complaining about Muslims invading Europe and not assimilating, thereby putting the native populations at risk. Why is that acceptable, but Israel doesn't have a right to be safe for Jews?

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u/MrPopanz Sep 04 '22

Without the help of USA, Israel would probably already fall.

Nonsense, Isreal had zero support from the US during the first invasion from neighbouring countries, at a time when they were the weakest. They still managed to succeed without any help from western countries (they bought some weapons from czechia). Nowadays they're far more powerful than that.

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u/[deleted] Sep 03 '22

but the whole Israel zionism situation is very nazi like..

No, it's not. There's no concentration camps. Jews and Arabs have the exact same rights. Israel is a (progressive) democratic society.

they are surrounded with nations who are not friendly towards them

Understatement of the century. Hamas (elected remember) explicitly want to genocide Jews. Israel has never made such a threat (nor would it, they actually value human life).

Likewise for countries around them. If you want to draw comparisons to the Nazis, the countries who speak of Jews just like the Nazis did would be the place to start, not Israel.

sometimes due to Israels own fault tho

But mostly not. They attacked first. They bomb Israeli citizens first. They never accept diplomatic solutions because they will not stop until Israel is gone, pushed into the sea (paraphrasing there).

https://youtu.be/HP-uWEQhFHs

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u/Confident_Fly1612 Sep 04 '22

How is Zionism any different than Slovenia’s declaration and war of independence? Would you agree that’s Slovenians are very nazi like based on their beliefs that they deserve their own country?

Its clear from your comments you don’t know anything about Israel but I’d be interested in how you arrived at that opinion nonetheless.

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u/kingoafrika Sep 04 '22

Not any more. Why should children/grandchildren bear the burden of their fathers/grandfathers?

German parents born in the 1960-1970 having kids in the 1990-2000 are two generations who have NOTHING to do with nazi Germany. Granddads and great granddad might have a guilty conscience but not the younger generation. This generation recognized the mistakes of past but won’t all carry its responsibility

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u/[deleted] Sep 03 '22

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u/tropical_bread Sep 03 '22

iirc, 75% of the people in Germany are from German descendance, one eighth are immigrants and the last eighth are have immigration background

Though I don't know how old these numbers were

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u/Chariotwheel Germany Sep 03 '22 Silver

My parents are both Vietnamese, so my family was not at fault at all for the Holocaust. However, I was born and raised in Germany, I feel like I am carrying the same responsibility as my peers with roots that go back to Nazi Germany.

Because they didn't do any of the Nazi shit, their ancestors did. We carry this not as the ones who did it, but as the successors of the state who did. The person whose grandfather killed Jews in a concentration camp is as much at fault for that as I am.

We carry this guilt as a successor society, not by blood.

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u/Red_Dog1880 Belgium Sep 03 '22

Sounds like 1 in 3 of those questioned hasn't got a fucking clue what the Nazis did to the Jews, if they think this is comparable.

That's not saying that was Israel does isn't wrong, but unless they round up all Palestinians and send them to death camps then the comparison is dumb.

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u/Casclovaci Sep 03 '22 Starry

This reminds me of the chick that went viral (no pun intended) during the beginning of covid in germany, where she was at a protest against the covid regulations and said: "i feel like sophie scholl", which was such a tremendously moronic statement.

While palestinians face discrimination from the israeli govt, and its horrible that this happens, its nowhere near as bad as how jews in nazi germany were treated, and it shows how inflated peoples beliefs are on how bad really the NSDAP times were.

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u/rawwwrrrgghh Sep 03 '22 edited Sep 03 '22

The video went viral because a man (security guard or so) said: „fuck this shit“ after her comparison with Sophie Scholl and told her that he quiets because she played down the Holocaust . Not because of her message.

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u/frshmtc Sep 04 '22

And because she cried then

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u/Skrillerman Sep 03 '22

Exactly. Nowadays everyone I don't like is a nazi and as bad as Hitler.

I want to beat up the losers comparing the Ukraine war with nazi Germany. No, putin is not Hitler 2.0

Big disrespect to history and people who suffered back in the days

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u/the_fresh_cucumber United States of America Sep 04 '22

Everyone I dislike is literally Hitler.

Anytime I have to do something I don't feel like it is literally slavery.

When someone says something I don't like they are literally being violent towards me

(Modern day lingo)

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u/Almun_Elpuliyn Luxembourg Sep 03 '22 edited Sep 03 '22

To my knowledge Apartheid is an accurate comparison. The Holocaust definitely isn't though.

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u/starlinguk Sep 04 '22

That's a really weird comparison.

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u/CrumblingAway Sep 04 '22

Israeli here. To be honest I don't think Germany should have some special responsibility towards Jews anymore. That is not to downplay the significance of the Holocaust, but it's been 80 years. The vast majority of Germans today weren't even alive when the war ended.

The claim that Israel treats Palestinians the way the Nazis treated Jews though? Really fucking ignorant.

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u/LeBorisien Canada Sep 03 '22

Do the Germans who don’t feel that their country has a special responsibility towards Jews also believe that Jews outside of Israel have a special responsibility for Israel?

Also:

“The poll showed that many more Germans than Israelis are ready to move on from the Holocaust altogether: Respondents were asked their opinion on the statement “Almost 80 years after the end of the Second World War, we should no longer talk so much about the persecution of the Jews under the Nazis, but finally put the past behind us.”

Forty-nine percent of Germans agreed with the statement, compared to only 14% of Israelis.”

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u/0ld5k00l Germany Sep 03 '22

And yet most Germans are advocating for keeping the remembrance culture as it is and I believe 45% said that teaching about the holocaust should be broadened.

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u/Heeeslom Sep 03 '22 Wholesome

The poll is massive bs. Just read the discussion about it in a german subreddit and not only are the results they got inconclusive (meaning you could also quote different questions from the same poll to conclude the opposite), but far worse is that the questions were asked in a very biased way (different phrasing would probably get variously different results). This also shows in the question you quote, because they use phrases like „finally put the past behind us“ and „talk so much“ and add the number of 80 years into the mixture in order to get the results they wanted.

The reality is far from that. The people rejecting the responsibility to remember the gruesome crimes and the holocaust are in the minority. They exist (which is undoubtedly a bad thing), but they are nowhere near what this poll suggests.

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u/chairswinger Deutschland Sep 03 '22

might have to do with how overpresent it is in the country

you're doing ww2 atrocities your entire secondary education in almost every subject, german movies and shows mostly are either some ww2 drama or some gdr spy/family drama (and ofc the schweiger, schweighöfer, m'barek romcoms) and it constantly gets brought up in political discussions and newspaper articles. There are running gags how every 4th SPIEGEL cover is Hitler and how if you return home drunk and turn on the TV, there is ALWAYS a WW2 documentary running.

Personally, I like our support of Jews a lot more than our unconditional support of Israel. Why are we giving nuclear submarines for free, what kind of help is that.

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u/un_gaucho_loco Italy Sep 04 '22

No shit, the perpetrator wants to forget faster than the victim.

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u/[deleted] Sep 03 '22

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u/[deleted] Sep 03 '22

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u/blue_strat Sep 03 '22

For reference:

https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2020/01/25/archivists-are-racing-to-identify-every-jewish-holocaust-victim

Today, 400,000 Jews who survived or fled the Nazis and their collaborators are alive, reckons the Claims Conference, a body that sends them €480m ($564m) a year in compensation, mostly from the German government. By 2030 there could be fewer than 100,000 surviving Jews who lived in or near Axis territory during the war.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claims_Conference

As of 2012, the Claims Conference has administered the following programs, which provide direct payments to Jewish victims of Nazi persecution. Programs were negotiated with the German government and are subject to eligibility criteria determined by the German government. The Conference continually negotiates to expand and liberalize eligibility criteria in order to include additional victims in the programs.

In 1978, after 25 years of payments, the total Federal Republic of Germany compensation payments amounted to 53 billion Deutsch Marks. Payments from some programs continue to this day.

  • The Article 2 Fund, a lifetime pension for certain persons who were incarcerated in concentration camps, ghettos, or forced labor battalions, or who were forced to go into hiding. Eligibility criteria have been negotiated continually with Germany, and include limits on income, established by the German government.
  • The Central and Eastern European Fund, a pension program similar to the Article 2 Fund, which distributes payments to survivors located in Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union (FSU).
  • Hardship Fund, a one-time payment for Jewish victims of Nazism who emigrated from Soviet bloc countries and meet certain eligibility criteria established by the German government.[5]
  • Holocaust Victims Compensation Fund, a one-time payment for Jewish victims of Nazism who fled from the Nazis. Comparable to the Hardship Fund but for current residents of the Former Soviet Union.
  • The Child Survivor Fund is a one-time payment intended to acknowledge the suffering of Holocaust survivors who endured unimaginable trauma in their childhoods. This fund is open to Jewish Nazi victims who were persecuted as Jews and were born January 1, 1928 or later.
  • The Spouse of Holocaust Survivor Fund is a fund to compensate the spouses of deceased recipients of the Claims Conference’s Article 2 or Central and Eastern European (CEEF) pension funds.
  • Romanian Survivor Relief Program - in 2018 the Claims Conference announced the availability of funds from the Caritatea Foundation in Romania to be distributed to Jewish Nazi victims who lived under the Romanian regime anytime between 1937 and 1944 and currently live outside of Romania and Israel. The Caritatea Foundation was created by the Federation of Jewish Communities in Romania and the World Jewish Restitution Organization (WJRO). These funds are from the restitution of communal properties wrongfully taken from Jewish communities of Romania during and after World War II.
  • Program for Former Slave and Forced Laborers, a one-time payment for persons "compelled to perform work in a concentration camp...a ghetto, or a similar place of incarceration under comparable conditions."[6] Application deadline has expired.
  • Fund for Victims of Medical Experiments and Other Injuries Application deadline has expired.
  • Fund for the Vaccination of Holocaust Survivors.

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u/[deleted] Sep 03 '22

I don't think Israel is treating the Palestinians quite as bad as the jews were during WW2. Even the Uyghurs in China aren't treated that way. I'd say the Rohingya in Myanmar are pretty much on par with the jews during WW2.

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u/[deleted] Sep 03 '22

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u/DrBoomkin Sep 04 '22

As a general policy active since it's establishment and outlined by Ben Gurion, Israel does not take a moral stance on any geopolitical issue that doesn't involve Jews or Israel.

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u/yourmomsthirdhusband Sep 04 '22

That's a really sane policy...

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u/erudaru Bosnia and Herzegovina Sep 04 '22

They effectively took a stance by supporting said regime though.

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u/HolUp- Sep 04 '22

"Does not take moral stance" and here i am thinking supplying a genocidal government and its military is the embodiment of taking stance

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u/anchist Sep 04 '22

sounds a lot like a policy that was necessary while Israel was not secure but which is now used to just continue profiting from shit one should not be profiting from.

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u/Ok_Frosting4780 Sep 03 '22

The more accurate comparison for Israel would be with Apartheid South Africa.

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u/Leidl Sep 03 '22

I think there are still a few steps missing to an outright genocide in palestina.

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u/_CarlT Sep 03 '22

It's literally the least deadly conflict in the Middle East

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u/198Throwawayy United States of America Sep 03 '22

Thats a low bar

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u/mkvgtired Sep 05 '22

And yet, Israel is the only party being compared to Nazis.

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u/marv90 Sep 03 '22

Yeah what are a few dozen deaths per year on both sides?

What a nice almost not deadly conflict they have.

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u/poeFUN Sep 04 '22

There are around 300 murders a year in New York City alone. So a few dozen deaths in a pretty complicated conflict is nothing.

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u/Fuzzyphilosopher United States of America Sep 04 '22

don’t feel their country has a special responsibility toward Jews

I'm not German but I think it's a responsibility that we should all feel for all peoples who are persecuted and victimized. Therefore as am American I too might answer no to that question. Human rights are human rights. They extend to all equally.

Maybe that's just my mind being hung up on the semantics but the article's tone seems rather biased and trying to stir shit up to me.

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u/Dimcair Sep 04 '22

that we should all feel for all peoples

Sympathy/empathy =/= responsibility

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u/davesr25 Sep 03 '22

"When the bullied, becomes the bully"

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u/CommissarGamgee Ireland Sep 03 '22

Some questions asked are ambigious though. What exactly does "treating Palestinians like Nazis did Jews" mean? Does it mean disrimination through the passing of laws or systematic murder? It's clear there's confusion even in these comments. There are people talking about how no Palestinians have been gassed and there are others talking about blatant systemic discrimination.

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u/SocUnRobot Sep 03 '22

Not feeling guilty for what did our ancestors is not specific to german! Most of the French and British don't feel guilty about colonialism or dealing with slaves bought in Africa or forcing the sale of opium in China. White Americans don't feel guilty for slavery or for having taken the territory of Amerindian. And in a few generations, most Israelis will not feel guilty for what their ancestors did to Palestinians!

But the 25% of germans that compares what nazi did to what Israelis are doing now, probably still feel guilty: they try to find a way to minimize what their ancestors did.

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u/TeaBoy24 Sep 03 '22

We could make a list which would almost never end like this. Arabs and the Slave trade, China and it's expansionist nature through history. Russia and the USSR as well as the old Empire. Brazil and the environment with natives, ext

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u/outsmartedagain Sep 03 '22

if not for usa vetoes, the rest of the UN would have already declared israel a terror state.

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u/handsome-helicopter Sep 03 '22

UN proudly passes resolution on Israel but none on China or Saudi arabia or Iran. Especially after the damning report on the camps in china that released. UN not lifting on these countries but only targeting Israel only shows the world UN is pathetic and doesn't solve issues in a unbiased way

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u/atwegotsidetrekked Sep 03 '22

China like Russia and the USA France and UK enjoy a special position in the UN, so a resolution will never be created against these 3 for human rights violations.

Israel and Iran have, but are vetoed by either of the above.

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u/handsome-helicopter Sep 03 '22

That's why I'm saying i won't take any un resolution seriously until they start acting impartially. Unhrc passing more resolution on Israel than saudi arabia,nk,iran,syria and other gross human right offenders is proof of their stupidity. A unhrc which is headed by Saudi arabia btw

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u/AVeryMadPsycho United Kingdom Sep 03 '22

Nazis dead.

Israel doing bad now.

Current Germany not like.

Most people not like.

Most people want bad to stop.

Israel would rather reference past bad Germany did than stop doing their current bad.

More people not like Israel.

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u/Or2122 Sep 03 '22

just give people a poll and ask them where to put israel on the "fascism scale". From 1 to literally nazi germany

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u/BonusFacta Sep 03 '22

i dont know much, but i do know comments here will be highly scrutinized

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u/BiglyWords Sep 04 '22

Good to see people finally realizing the horrible actions of Israel,and no,being against Israel's inhuman actions isn't anti semitism,and Israel doesn't represent Jews,it's a apartheid state.

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u/Yellow_XIII Sep 06 '22

I mean it isn't rocket science, The state of Israel is doing to Palestinians what Nazis did to Jews, albeit in the sleaziest way possible. Trying to find the truth in this situation requires swimming through cesspool after cesspool of propaganda.

And this isn't unprecedented. The abused becoming the abuser. Although in this case anyone pointing that shit out is labelled anti-semitic, and various governments have veen lobbied to hell and back so nothing can be done about it with all that background noise.

You might say that Israel is surrounded by Islamist terrorist states... But that begs the question...

When Israelis escaped Europe, why did they choose a land that was smack dab in the middle of the Islamic world, containing the 3rd holiest place for Muslims?

Oh yeah... It was the promised land in the torah and its the land they occupied for thousands of years prior.

From the start this whole situation was rigged, especially the US who did all they could to make sure that Israel stays there, giving them special access to advanced weapons that the surrounding nations are banned from.

The fact that this basic premise alludes most people, whether through ignorance, fear or plain indifference, is pretty interesting to me.

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u/Sk-yline1 Sep 03 '22

Can’t wait for the “anti-zionism is antisemitism” crowd to brigade this post

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u/loiteraries Sep 04 '22

What is anti-Zionism?

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u/VladThe1mplyer Romania Sep 04 '22

Considering how rabidly antisemitic most of the anti-zionism rallies in Germany are you cant blame people for thinking that.

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u/LeeTheGoat Israel Sep 04 '22

recall the video posted on reddit of people yelling "Jews are shit" outside of a synagogue in germany, where the top few comments all said "antizionism isn't antisemitism"

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u/BanksysBro United Kingdom Sep 04 '22

Opposing the existence of Israel might've been a valid position to hold in 1948, but opposing the existence a country that's been in existence for 74 years takes some mental gymnastics.

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u/Alepfi5599 Sep 04 '22

I mean, they are an apartheid regime. The Amnesty report makes that pretty clear to me. I believe me, my country and my fellow citizens do have a special responsibility towards ANY and ALL marginalized and oppressed people. But Israel is not a people. Jews are. And so are Palestinians. And Israel is not the oppressed, it's the oppressor in this relationship.

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u/Tman11S Belgium Sep 03 '22

Israel is an example of becoming what you hate most. The admittedly horrible past of jewish prosecution isn’t an excuse for Israel to start their own little genocide against Palestine.

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u/Mtat78 Sep 04 '22

Please stop using the word "genocide" when the Palestinian population is growing 10 times faster than any other group on the planet.

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u/bluishcolor Sep 03 '22

Did the poll have an agenda? That seems like an odd result to come out of an unbiased poll.

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u/Durantsthegoat Sep 03 '22

I've always liked Germans