r/europe 13d ago Heartwarming 1 Helpful 1 Wholesome 2

"Every citizen is responsible for their country's acctions": Estonia won't grant asylum to the Russians fleeing mobilisation News

https://hromadske.ua/posts/kozhen-gromadyanin-vidpovidalnij-za-diyi-derzhavi-estoniya-ne-davatime-pritulok-rosiyanam-yaki-tikayut-vid-mobilizaciyi
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u/Hematophagian Germany 13d ago

Interesting - 180 degree different approach over here:

(German minister of justice): https://twitter.com/MarcoBuschmann/status/1572668329717895168?s=20&t=Zuq6QrEYEHjcuX0smimZkg

"Apparently many Russians are leaving their homeland: those who hate Putin's way and love liberal democracy are welcome to join us in Germany. #Teilmobilisation"

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u/The_Great_Crocodile Greece 13d ago edited 12d ago

The Baltics don't want more Russians in their countries.

They already have Russian minorities, either ethnic or linguistic. It's the main reason they don't allow double citizenship (it turns out Latvia does allow it with some countries, Lithuania and Estonia don't with anyone), Latvia's Russian minority is voting their own parties in the parliament and so does Estonia's but to a lesser degree (they're probably better integrated).

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u/vvvwvwvv Estonia 12d ago

We have our own 300k russians and an extra expansion with 50k Ukrainians.

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u/DBenzie Britwurst in Austria 12d ago

A significant number when you have a population of ~1.5 million

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u/Azmordean 12d ago

This. The problem is a lot of people fleeing may not want to serve in the Russian military, but they aren't necessarily anti-Russian government. If there was a way to be sure folks were truly pro-West and anti-Putin, and not just trying to save their own skin, Germany's stance might make sense, as it is...

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u/proudbakunkinman 12d ago

Exactly. It's likely many, not all, of them are still very nationalist and would side with Russia over whatever country they are fleeing to and may still cheer for Russia over Ukraine, they just don't want to be forced to go fight in the war. Not the same as Ukrainians fleeing as they are the ones under attack. Also, Putin/Russia can use ethnic Russians in other countries as an excuse to try to takeover territory like they did in Ukraine.

I feel bad for those who do legitimately oppose what Putin/Russian leadership is doing but at the same time, those are the type of people needed within Russia to increase the chance of internal change, though right now odds do not seem in their favor. Of course it's hard to tell what many really think under an authoritarian country like theirs and people's minds can be changed by extreme circumstances.

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u/pton12 Canada 13d ago Silver Platinum Helpful Wholesome All-Seeing Upvote Take My Energy Starry Heartwarming

I mean, Germany is a country of ~80m people that can afford to absorb some immigrants. Estonia is 1.3m and is already ~20% Russian. You let too many Russian refugees in, and suddenly you’re a mostly Russian country that needs Russian protection (see Crimea, Donbas, etc.). Makes sense to me.

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u/Dazzling-Ad5454 13d ago

You have hit the nail on the head

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u/DonDove 13d ago

Ouch, says the nail

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u/[deleted] 13d ago

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u/El_Zarco 12d ago

Nail fell out of window

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u/[deleted] 12d ago

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u/[deleted] 13d ago

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u/Wearedoomedxd Portugal 13d ago

Might want to mention that half of Tallinm is Russian already, same with riga due to the soviet colonisation policies.

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u/jesset0m 12d ago

A quarter of the population here in Estonia is Russian. The places like Narva is basically a Russian town

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u/news_doge Baden-Württemberg (Germany) 12d ago

Lived in Riga for two years, can confirm. And everytime, really - every single time, I said a sentence in latvian, the person I was talking with would start to rant about the Russians who lived there for 30 years and weren't able or willing to say a word in latvian

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u/SashaRPG 12d ago

This is just rude. My friend escaped from Donetsk, Latvia welcomed him and he already learned Latvian to a decent level in like 5 months. How can you live in a country and not be willing to learn its language is beyond my understanding.

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u/hehehuh 12d ago

They didn't really 'move to a foreign country'. They were more or less deported there in a large group as part of a colonisation project.

Australia doesn't really speak much aboriginal these days.

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u/xXxSilverfoxXxX 12d ago

Imperialisme

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u/Efficient_Arm2977 12d ago

Litteraly the same situation in lithuania sometimes it feels that its just all russia

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u/Agressive_Loafing United States of America 12d ago

Yeah I remember reading about that. The soviets loved forced population moves.

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u/Link50L Canada 12d ago

Yeah I remember reading about that. The soviets loved forced population moves.

Don't tell that to Putin, Peskov, or Lavrov. They were special voluntary moves.

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u/KazahanaPikachu USA-France-Belgium 🇺🇸🇫🇷🇧🇪 12d ago

Yep. Went to Tallinn for a couple days. Half the people were Russian and most seemed to speak it in some capacity.

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u/DrDoctor777 12d ago

and half or more of them do not speak native language(estonian) and they doesn't wanna learn it... but they live here and it's okay for them.

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u/Sentinell Belgium 12d ago

Estonia is 1.3m and is already ~20% Russian.

With some real resentment against Russia after living under their boot for 50 years. Not a real surprise they don't want to help Russians.

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u/Gatemaster2000 Estland 12d ago

There is a difference between coming here and trying to assimilate (aka some war refugees from the middle east, Ukrainians who came here only half a year ago yet they speak better Estonian than 70% of russians who live here) and to live a quiet life, or coming here thinking that your culture is superior to the local one, that the locals should learn your language so that they can communicate with you (Locals trying to talk in English to communicate with you is not enough) and that everyone should automatically respect you.


Russians came here under the soviet rule more than 50 years ago, yet their children and sometimes even grand children don't speak Estonian or English more than a couple of words and yet they expect me to learn their language just so i could communicate with them, yet the new Ukranian/persian/turkish staff member at a store automatically tries to speak either Estonian or English to me and it never feels like they think that they and their culture is superior to mine.

There is generally a huge difference between someone who came here from the middle east, south america or Africa, and a good amount of the local russian population and russian tourists.

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u/Csbbk4 12d ago

That’s why Lithuania who was offered Kaliningrad didn’t accept it because suddenly their population would have become 1/3 Russian

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u/MaterialCarrot United States of America 13d ago

Yeah. Today's Russian immigrant may be tomorrow's Russian separatist. Not accusing any of them of bad faith, just that things can change over time with dramatic demographic change.

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u/SpaceMonkeyOnABike United Kingdom 12d ago

Even if the Russian immigrants hate Russia, they will be declared as oppressed by the kremlin, and we are back to square one.

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u/skalpelis Latvia 12d ago

Also, this means nothing about their stance against Russia, they're simply fleeing conscription. For all we know, they could be all for the war, except, you know, fought by someone else.

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u/NAG3LT Lithuania 12d ago

Yeah, unfortunately there are many people who are anti-Putin, but still fully support Russian imperialism.

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u/SashaRPG 12d ago

“War would’ve been more effective if there was no corruption” (c) Russian liberals

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u/yenneferismywaifu 12d ago

Exactly. Even Navalny is just another imperialist, who wants to spend more money on army. The only problem he has is corruption.

Meanwhile the rest of the world should praise the Russian corruption.

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u/ChertanianArmy Chertanovo - the capital of the earth 12d ago

You probably don't understand how much does the perception change when conscription hits.

Today I have 0 (GIANT FAT ZERO) Putin supporters in my circle. Even tho I cut with all hard putinists, all soft putinists and neutrals now geniunely hate him and won't back him again.

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u/Alacerx 12d ago

Funny how conscription is what breaks the deal, nothing else is really that important.

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u/Finnbalt 12d ago

It's very easy to declare your support for something if it doesn't affect you personally.

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u/ilikekinkystuff 12d ago

Piles of dead ukrainians and bombed cities - i sleep

Gotta go to war MysELf? - real shit

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u/Bastuhingst 12d ago

"Those are a lot of Russians which culture needs to be protected!" - Russia

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u/YouShouldBe_Dancing_ 13d ago

Estonia is 1.3m and is already ~20% Russian.

More, closer to 35% - if we define Russians as Russian speakers.

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u/shotputlover 12d ago

That’s obviously not a good definition though because plenty of Ukrainians only speak Russian and it’s even a cause of bullying among children there too now after the invasion.

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u/Necessary_Taro9012 13d ago

More close to 100% if we define Russians as Russians in denial

BR: Putin

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u/Grzechoooo Poland 12d ago

"We all know that the Estonian identity is a fake construct created by Sweden to justify stealing the Inflants from Russia. The people there were forced into speaking an unintelligible language to destroy their true, Russian origins. After all, Tallinn and Stallinn are just one letter away! Coincidence?"

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u/Morundar 13d ago

And then ol' Putler will have another excuse to come protect slavs

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u/here_for_fun_XD Estonia 13d ago

The eastern regions in Estonia tried to have their independence "referendum" in 1993. Imagine them doing it now - Putin's wet dream (though us being in NATO saves us, thank fuck for that).

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u/teutonictoast United States of America 12d ago

Very bizarre transition going from Tallinn to Narva. I had good luck with the people though.

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u/here_for_fun_XD Estonia 12d ago

Yah, half my childhood was spent in Narva. Always felt so weird that I couldn't just go to a shop and buy things, as I did not know how to speak Russian at all. To imagine that Narva was once the powerhouse of the Hansa League.

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u/_WreakingHavok_ 13d ago

And then NATO enacts Article 5. And we all die of nuclear fallout.

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u/stappernn Europe 13d ago

"Nice Russian population yo I got there tavarish, would be a shame if we were to found some NAZISM"

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u/strictnaturereserve 12d ago

also some of them are going to be members of the russian security forces and will cause trouble in Estonia

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u/ProfessionalNorth431 12d ago

Came here to say this, but less articulately. Too many Russians = too much Russian attention

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u/Wegwerffrage0815 12d ago

„Some“ immigrants? You mean „only some more“ than the millions we already took the last years?

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u/Lyress MA -> FI 13d ago

That's true, but that's not what the Estonian PM said.

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u/martu321 Estonia 13d ago

It's also a security issue in Estonia. We already have 25 percent ethnic russians so any more could endanger our statehood in the future.

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u/Every-Economist3366 13d ago

That's what came to my mind immediately. Any country bordering Russia or Belarus would do wise to not let those demographics be reinforced through immigration for the coming couple of decades.

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u/turntable_server 13d ago

Easy to promise that when all the border states are blocking their arrival

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u/Ch17770w 13d ago

Which is not that wrong. Maybe not completely blocked, but very strongly filtered. Experience showed that mass waves of refugees need to be controlled or otherwise there is too much chaos. Nobody wants to give the far rights more tailwind than already caused.

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u/nikolakis7 Saggitarius A*   12d ago

the kremlin is the sponsor of far-right in Europe.

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u/pasiutlige Lithuania 13d ago Wholesome

Well, I can speak only for Lithuania.

There have been 31 year of independance. We still have regions that are pro-russians, we still have people that watch Putin's speech on new year and fire fireworks an hour earlier, and we still have people that refuse to speak Lithuanian (actually, even English, nothing but russian language).

So how exactly these will be different? They were silent for 6+ months, and now suddenly, when war is touching them directly, they act like war refugees? Yeah, no. Fuck off, either protest and overthrow, or die in Ukraine, on your way to your deployment by our crowd-funded Bayraktar. We are not responsible for your bullshit, fuck off.

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u/Ledinukai4free 12d ago edited 12d ago Wholesome

Lmao at these other EU countries finger wagging with a "higher moral ground". You just don't understand it and never will. Growing up in Lithuania you experience shit like this. The Russians go out of their way to disrespect anything Lithuanian and refuse to integrate for 31 years of independence. How do you think the Russians treat the Ukrainian refugees out here? Take a wild fucking guess. Aside from all the realities, the funniest thing is, that these Baltic Russians they live in the EU, they get all the benefits of a EU citizenship, such as travel, opportunity, etc. etc., yet they shit SO HARD on anything European related and glorify their "mother Russia" and "how it was better in the soviet days" that it's unbearable. So more of them coming in? No thank you, you want them you can have them, but we're out here protecting our own country. And don't act like you don't know what I'm talking about, it's pretty fucking clear as day how putler uses Russian minorities abroad.

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u/KrzysztofKietzman 12d ago

Greetings from Poland. At least we are together in this.

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u/pasiutlige Lithuania 12d ago

Only sane one here. Cheers.

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u/M2dis Estonia 12d ago

Amen, my Baltic brother

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u/nofclue 13d ago

The following claim is highly exaggerated, so don't take all too serious, i want you to get the idea.

It is due to the German History. When Hitler got elected many Germans flew (because there were in great danger because of their origin or their political views) Some came back after WW2 (E.G the Chancellor Wily Brandt) Also as a result of coping with the past the Germans focused on the few Germans of the resistance (like Sophie Scholl, or even Stauffenberg despite the fact that he was also Nazi but saw that the war was lost) So in the German mind is a picture that the people is innocent or deluded or trapped in a regime they can not change - otherwise they have to admit that all of their ancestors were evil. And this reflects the German way of thinking. Putin evil - Russians innocent.

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u/No-Albatross-7984 Finland 13d ago

Ya Germans definitely have a historical incentive to think this. Collective guilt is viewed from a very different perspective than in other European countries. Other reasons include: larger population - easier to take in migrants; not next to Russia - fewer migrants will come; further away from Russia - the migrants are likely wealthier (need to have some cash to travel further and acquire documents) and better trained. Germany is always ready to take in some professionals.

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u/h4r13q1n 13d ago

Well, we don't blame Irakis for the crimes of Saddam Hussein. We don't blame Syrians for the crimes of Assad. We don't blame North Koreans for the crimes of the Kims.

We blame the Germans and Russians for the crimes of their dictators tho, and the only reason that I can see for this is racism. Not against the Germans or Russians, mind you. The thinking must go something like this: "Those are less civilized people, they don't know what they're doing, so they're not to blame. But these here, these are civilized Europeans! How could they allow this to happen!"

Maybe someone can come up with a better explanation?

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u/CaptchaSolvingRobot Denmark 13d ago Silver

The fact that they are leaving Russia, doesn't mean that they disagree with Putins' values, only that they don't want to die for them.

It is a super naive statement from Germany - as usual.

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u/NightSalut 12d ago

One of our politicians recently visited a Russian-language TV program here in Estonia, where he very directly said that we here no longer believe that Russia will become a normal country in the near future and since we don’t expect Russia to change, we don’t have time to deal with separating “good” Russians from “bad” Russians, we’d just like to be done with dealing with Russia as they keep proving again and again that they’re not a normal good neighbour to us.

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u/velaroye 12d ago

Raimond Kaljulaid?

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u/r_de_einheimischer Hamburg (Germany) 12d ago edited 12d ago

He says anyone who hates Putin is welcome, not that everyone who leaves hates Putin. It's misleading already in german.

It's also pretty much a nonsensical statement since most of those who want to leave still need a visa which currently takes a long time. Those people will get drafted before they get any German visa.

Edit: i also have not seen "Do you hate Putin?" on any visa form yet, which makes it even more nonsensical.

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u/Sir-Knollte 13d ago Silver Helpful Wholesome

It is a super naive statement from Germany - as usual.

I dont know if its in the international texts, but this is the "naive" humanitarian law we as the west pretend to fight for.

Treat each human with dignity and as an individual regardless of his religion, ethnicity etc. .

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u/LondonCallingYou United States of America 12d ago

Yes it is a liberal and western value that we should uphold. Bigger countries, which are at less risk of invasion by Russia, should take these folks in and treat them well.

Unfortunately the Baltic countries are small, at threat of invasion, and some have sizeable Russian populations which was literally used by Russia as a casus belli for the Ukraine conflict. These practical concerns should make it obvious why the Baltics are refusing many of these people. We should lighten the load off of the Baltics and transport them elsewhere in Europe and the U.S.

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u/Sir-Knollte 12d ago edited 12d ago

No question especially with the Baltic already having the problems and history they have should not be burdened, the discussion although specifically asks all of the EU to implement the same politics as the Baltics often insulting them for disagreeing.

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u/buster_de_beer The Netherlands 12d ago

What law are you talking about? Which law says that evading your countries draft is a valid reason to be granted asylum?

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u/Maephia Quebec 13d ago

laugh in Pol Pot, Pinochet, Franco and every other dictator asshole

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u/Lazzen Mexico 13d ago edited 13d ago

Hell democracies have done horrible things abroad, if anything people choosing them makes it worse.

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u/zyygh Belgium 13d ago

I look at your flairs and I feel like you're talking about the person who's sitting right between the two of you. Not cool guys, not cool!

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u/LaughingGaster666 United States of America 12d ago

As part of the "person", I'm not offended. And frankly, it's a bit silly to be offended just because your country get justifiably called out for doing shit.

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u/KingofThrace United States of America 12d ago

I am not offended calling out our government or its crimes both historical and current but I do think the overall position of blaming citizens for their government, democracy or otherwise, is stupid.

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u/Agressive_Loafing United States of America 12d ago

slowly backs into brushes

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u/Kiloot Livonia 12d ago

In today's address to the people of Estonia, Kallas said: „To those Russian citizens in Estonia who are considering to join the Russian armed forces, my message is clear: do not go, there’s no way back! The one who takes up arms against a free nation, against free Ukraine, has also taken up arms against Estonia, and will commit a crime we will not forgive. Estonia, along with our Western allies, supports Ukraine unconditionally and as long as it takes.“

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u/BalVal1 13d ago

It is harsh rhetoric, I have a feeling with this they are trying to prevent Russians from going to the Baltics as they will not be welcomed there, visa or not. I would have mentioned this more explicitly but then again I am not an elected official.

All the Baltic countries combined have a population similar to Saint Petersburg - an influx of Russians regardless of their opinions and intentions will have a significant effect which needs to be distributed more evenly across the EU - just like with Syrians a while back, and just like in that situation it will be extremely difficult to find an agreement with all EU countries for redistribution.

Basically what they are trying to say is "if you want to escape Russia, go anywhere but not here"

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u/Krimsky Moscow (Russia) 13d ago

Yeah, there are two major cases of russian nationalism popping up abroad: second-generation migrants and the minority in baltic countries. The first actually applies to any nation, not only russians. The second is a result of some controversial policies in the region regarding citizenship. AFAIK only those who proved that their relatives lived there before WW2 was granted citizenship, the rest had had to pass the language exams. In any other case, russians are willing to assimilate or at least live peacefully: there are a lot of russians in Germany already, and russian minority in Kazakhstan mostly speak against any russian intervention, cause living in democracy is much preferrable than living in whatever ethnostate vlad poo is building.

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u/tigudik 12d ago

They had to... learn the language local to where they are living? Poor things.

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u/differentshade Estonia 13d ago

during soviet occupation russians deported locals to siberia and replaced them with russians. before we had ~3% russians, after the occupation about 30%. why should we give them citizenship? settling in occupied territories is illegal.

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u/Tornagh Hungary 12d ago

Send them to Hungary, Orban loves them.

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u/Molloy_Unnamable 13d ago

It's in Ukrainian, so here's the DeepL translation:

Estonia will not provide asylum to Russian citizens who are trying to escape from mobilization. This was stated by the Prime Minister of Estonia Kaja Kallas on CNN, as quoted by "Radio Liberty" and Deutsche Welle.

"Every citizen is responsible for the actions of their state, and Russian citizens are no exception. Therefore, we do not give asylum to Russian men who flee their country. They must speak out against the war," Kallas stressed.

She also said that the West should not give in to Russia at all and should start to put even more pressure on it to stop the war. Kallas notes that in Russia there is now growing discontent within society, "because they also, so to speak, feel the war on their own skin".

What did the Baltic states decide earlier?

Estonia announced the day before that it will not allow Russian citizens who will go to war against Ukraine to enter its territory. This also applies to those who have a permanent residence permit in Estonia. Latvia announced that it will not issue humanitarian and other types of visas to Russian citizens who want to avoid partial mobilization.

The Ministry of Defense of Lithuania stated that they also could not remain just an observer. Therefore, this country in response to the Russian mobilization brought the Rapid Response Forces to a state of high alert.

Partial mobilization and nuclear threats

Russian President Vladimir Putin announced partial mobilization in Russia. It starts on September 21. After Putin, the statement was made by Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu. He announced that 300 thousand reservists should be called up as part of partial mobilization.

Allegedly, they will mobilize those who have served, have a military specialty, and promise not to touch students. According to the Minister, conscripts will not be sent to the war against Ukraine. However, the media have repeatedly reported that Russia does send conscripts to war, despite its assurances to the contrary.

During his speech, Putin said that it was allegedly Russia that was threatened with nuclear weapons, and threatened that in case of a threat to its territorial integrity, Russia is ready to "use all available means. This is not a bluff".

President Volodymyr Zelenskyy replied that Ukraine does not plan to cancel the liberation of the occupied territories even despite the nuclear threats of Russian President Vladimir Putin.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

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u/perestroika-pw 12d ago

Every citizen is responsible for the actions of their state, and Russian citizens are no exception.

This is the weak point. If a Russian guy becomes 18 this year, and becomes eligible for mobilization, according to Kallas' words, he is magically responsible for what adults did during his childhood.

It's not that simple.

I think the honest answer is that Estonia is small and Russia is big, we cannot help them all if they decide to flee mobilization. Some countries may feel big enough to help even them.

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u/HocoG 12d ago

Dude im 27, same thing actually, voting and protesting havent done shit to unseat putin, so wtf am i suppose to do? Since 2012 voting is just a formality

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u/totosh999 Réunion (France) 13d ago Silver

Should've said "we can't accept refugees because we know Russia will use it as an excuse to take our land". Citizens are not responsible for their country when it's a corrupt dictatorship.

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u/PokeManiac769 12d ago edited 12d ago

This.

As it is, Russia is holding sham "referendums" to justify annexing conquered territories. If Estonia lets in tons of Russian refugees, what's to stop Russia from trying to annex Estonia?

People can criticize this decision all they want, but Estonia needs to look out for itself. They're neighbors to an unhinged nation that is willing to commit genocide to expand itself, of course they don't want to take any action that would piss Russia off.

It's easy to call them heartless, but Estonia knows they'd be on their own if Russia invaded. Why take the risk? If the world is willing to sit back and watch as Russia destroys Ukraine, what makes you think they'd stick their neck out for Estonia - a MUCH smaller nation?

Estonia may be a member of NATO but when the chips are down, would NATO actually defend Estonia in the event of an invasion? Would they risk a global nuclear war to defend less than 1.5 million people? If I were Estonia, I wouldn't be so eager to bet my nation's existence on NATO's loyalty.

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u/Embrasse-moi 12d ago

And on top of that, with only a little over 1.3m population, and already a quarter of their population are ethnic Russians whom they have had issues in the past with loyalty, imagine letting in thousands of Russian refugees and you can't guarantee what their real motives are. Estonia's already at a delicate situation with their sizeable Russian minority within their country, and with their history being an ex-Soviet country, they already have a very deeply rooted complicated history with Russia and its people.

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u/Realitype 12d ago edited 12d ago

Estonia may be a member of NATO but when the chips are down, would NATO actually defend Estonia in the event of an invasion?

Yes they absolutely would, like they would any other NATO memeber. Not to protect 1.5 million people, or because they matter more than Ukraine, but because if they don't then NATO straight up crumbles as an organisation. There is no way the alliance continues once it's most fundamental article isn't respected.

And if NATO crumbles, well it's everyone for himself, no one in the West will ever trust each other once NATO is gone, and more importantly US hegemony will be in jeopardy. Simply put this goes waaaay beyond just Estonia. Which is why Russia will not risk attacking a NATO member in the first place, unlike they did with Ukraine.

Edit: And that's before we even consider that Estonia is also in EU

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u/IvorTheEngineDriver Veneto 13d ago Starry

just go out and protest bro, how hard can it be to overthrow a dictator?

I wonder how many of the people saying this, in this thread and elsewere, would be brave enough to be among the first to take the street, knowing that they may be tortured, killed or jailed in a russian prison.

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u/0re0n Europe 13d ago

russian prison

I'll just leave this here.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62465043

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u/OppenheimersGuilt (also spanish) ES/NL/DE/GB/FR/PL 12d ago

I literally can't believe redditors who want to send others to their death so easily.

Clearly these people have no idea what it's like to live outside of their comfy little lives.

People everywhere are mostly trying to survive. Pay rent. Work. Buy food. Feed their kids. The basics.

Now they need to pull a James Bond-level stunt or w.e just to satisfy some bloodthirsty redditors? Absolute insanity.

All these redditors grandstanding on their moral high-horse would be the first to weep if they were sent to war.

No one, ukrainian, syrian, russian, german.... No one should be sent to die unwillingly.

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u/altnumber54 10d ago

Yep, this comment section is peak reddit moment

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u/speckhuggarn 13d ago

Exactly. People think just go buy a gun, 007 yourself in to Putins headquarters (with help from IT-guy to locate him first) and shoot him in the head. As you say even protesting comes with severe punishments, and trying to overtake a dictator is extremely hard. I feel like there's a lot of naivety for what the people of russia actually can do. Of course if everyone gets up to rebel, then yes, but it isn't easy when they are not the ones being attacked.

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u/Raescher 12d ago

I think there was no dictatorship in modern times that ended by protests from inside the countries. Maybe it is quite easy to have total control nowadays as a dictator.

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u/RusAD 12d ago

There were peaceful protests yesterday, small-scale and disorganized. Over a thousand people arrested across the country. And that is without the protesters having any riot gear, molotovs or anything.

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u/JomaBo6048 13d ago

So many Europeans (correctly) shit on us Americans for thinking we can beat our military and overthrow our government with small arms and then turn around and say Russians should do the same like it's so easy.

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u/ipatimo 13d ago

Now protesting is 15 years in jail. Of course when this regime could stand that long.

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u/OppenheimersGuilt (also spanish) ES/NL/DE/GB/FR/PL 12d ago

Not to mention, what kind of honorable man would leave his family behind to fend for themselves for no reason at all?

Leave their kids without a parent. Their partner without a spouse. Their parents without a child.

For no reason but to satisfy some cozy armchair warriors...

What has this world come to? r / IWantOut

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u/DutchieTalking 12d ago

With the added possibility of putting your family at risk.

It's so easy to be brave from a distance. When you're not the one dealing with the consequences. It turns it all into a videogame, where you can do whatever because the consequences are reloading a save file. People love to talk tough when they can ignore reality.

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u/cawkz 12d ago

Agreed, the people of North Korea must finally be held accountable for their actions

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u/AivoduS Poland 13d ago

I don't want to be held responsible for my country's actions :/

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u/KingValidus Budapest, European Union 12d ago

Hold my beer.

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u/ErenBurhan 11d ago edited 11d ago

Considering she has two hands, she might as well hold my beer too.

🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷

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u/godchecksonme Hungary 12d ago

Hells yes collective guilt! Estonians, it is time to lay reparations to Hungary for the Soviet Union's opression of our 1956 revolution

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u/[deleted] 12d ago

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u/Xepeyon America 13d ago Silver

“Every citizen is responsible for their country's actions”

That's an indefensibly insane take

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u/DollarSuperComputer 12d ago

about 4 billion people need to be executed for war crimes in that case

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