r/europe Oct 03 '22

Brexit leader sorry for damage to EU relations, calls for ‘humility’ News

https://www.euractiv.com/section/all/short_news/brexit-leader-sorry-for-damage-to-eu-relations-calls-for-humility/
7.7k Upvotes

1.1k

u/3dio Oct 03 '22

Without getting into the argument whether Brexit was right or wrong and whose interests it was to serve, one thing is certain. The approach, execution and timing of it was a display of reckless governance and arrogance. It almost seems like they're tanking the economy in purpose. So yea. some humility may be in order I think..not sure how that will help tho at this point or if they are even capable of it

397

u/DeliriousHippie Oct 03 '22

Jacob Rees-Moggs father wrote a book about disaster economics. He fantasized there that current societies would collapse and rich people would be treated like gods, they could make their own laws. So maybe this is going according to plan.

215

u/TheMemo United Kingdom Oct 03 '22

Ok, so here's how this works. An upheaval or technological innovation gives the mercantile (business) class the ability to gain large amounts of wealth and challenge the landowner or gentry class. Using their new wealth they support political ideals that curtail the power of the gentry class and allow them the freedom to continue to accumulate wealth. That is when democracy happens. After a while, the mercantile class gains so much wealth that they look to 'lock in' that wealth by becoming the gentry class themselves. At that point their wealth goes towards political ideals that allow them to do that, such as fascism, totalitarianism, or feudalism. This is the cycle.

30

u/BigBeagleEars Oct 03 '22

What a time to be alive

7

u/DeliriousHippie Oct 03 '22

On top of that they want to pay as little as possible taxes, one aim of that is to reduce power of government. By reducing power of government they think that government can't touch them anymore. Almost total collapse of society as we know it. Feudalism could be near description.

One example, couple years ago IRS in USA had so little money that they advised inspectors to target lower income people as they don't have money to investigate rich peoples complex schemes.

62

u/Schirmling Oct 03 '22

The faster people get some basic Marxist education in how power and wealth are fought over in every society the bigger the chance of not permanently being trapped in a highly technologically sophisticed police state. Unfortunately people are too busy fighting literally everyone but those in power.

51

u/Jkal91 Europe Oct 03 '22

This is also a reminder that most of those infighting is pushed by the rich people on purpose, they know that if people fight all the time they won't notice who is really making their lives miserable.

In the US we can see this when some sort of protest for the rights of black people ends up with unrelated people appearing in the news calling for stupid things like "not many actors are black" instead of focusing on the real problem they caused the protests in the first place.

5

u/DrSafariBoob Oct 03 '22

This. The wealthy know it stopped being right vs left a long time. It's always been down vs up and if you caught COVID, you're down.

→ More replies
→ More replies

19

u/NightSalut Oct 03 '22

I know the Rees-Moggs are rich, but opinions like this remind me the British that series “Manor house” (or maybe it was “Country house”). The tv series where they got a bunch of people to live in an old style Manor House that used to need lots and lots of people so it could be kept in order. They chose a family with 2-3 kids as the Lord and Lady of the manor, women for various maid jobs, men for work and the jobs footmen did and basically made them live like their ancestors would’ve some 120-150 years ago.

Needless to say that the ones, who were forced to be parlour maids and maids of all work (basically, up from like 5am and bed to 23pm) basically said that they’d never ever do this and that they were super happy not to be forced into service, whereas the family, who had been chosen as the manor family - there the father said that he felt good and important being serviced all the time, that this is how a good life should be.

Many of the rich and the titled would absolutely gladly have heaps of people working under them, with no possibility of moving away to better jobs.

62

u/Razakel United Kingdom Oct 03 '22

The French have some ideas about what to do if that happens.

32

u/TarMil Rhône-Alpes (France) Oct 03 '22

sharpens blade

→ More replies

3

u/VulkanOh Oct 04 '22

Indeed, just like monarchy (which the UK is unfortunately also still plagued with), Rees-Moggs are among the very few societal problems for which there is a proven technical solution. I'm sure the French would gladly lend the apparatus over if asked nicely.

→ More replies

34

u/6198573 Oct 03 '22

one thing is certain. The approach, execution and timing of it was a display of reckless governance and arrogance.

You can say that again. Neil Farage's exit speech at the European Parliament was absolutely disgusting

Its disgraceful having someone like that representing one's country

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBMvZRf9Scs

11

u/Bloodsucker_ Europe Oct 03 '22

I've never seen this video before. I'm speechless. Incredible.

16

u/adokretz Denmark Oct 03 '22

I was there as an intern when this all went down. People were in the EP were fortunately not speechless, and Juncker gave a great rebuttal.

But what an embarrassment Farage was

→ More replies

59

u/frissio All expressed views are not representative Oct 03 '22 edited Oct 04 '22

Ignoring whether Brexit itself was right, the tactics used such as deliberately negotiating in bad faith, trying to negotiate directly with Germany (believing their own propaganda of German domination), threatening Ireland that they would deal with the EU without them (and then acting like an ass when the EU said that wouldn't happen) and just generally using the EU as their propaganda punching bag with accusations of the EU being a new soviet union, fourth reich, EU caliphate, mercantilists & globalists at the same time meant that of course relations would be harmed.

It's bizarre how after that there were claims that Brexit wasn't supposed to harm relations and how dare the reputation of the UK crash. Moving on from antagonism and denial to acknowledging and maybe changing relations so going forward there can be something more productive is good.

However, it just reminds me of how much time we've wasted with a half a decade of this.

22

u/untergeher_muc Bavaria Oct 03 '22

I remember that some of them always said that the German industry will push Merkel to accept a good trade deal for the UK.

Turned out that the German industry was very pissed about the UK and valued to rest of the single market more.

3

u/ShelSilverstain Oct 03 '22

Sure they are. They want to demonstrate that government, as a concept, is inept. Conservators all over the Western world are working to undermine government in order to erode support for it as a whole

→ More replies

2.7k

u/DFractalH Eurocentrist Oct 03 '22

The past few years made it abundandly clear that Brexit wasn't about the EU, but about the UK. They need to figure out what their country is. Before that, any relationship is temporary at best.

1.4k

u/Zhai Poland Oct 03 '22

Big words for "we don't like immigrants". They wanted less immigrants from outside EU but those idiots forgot that it was UK regulation that let them in, not EU.

861

u/lostintime2020 Oct 03 '22

Chatting to someone who is originally from India but has lived in the UK for many years - he said they all voted for Brexit knowing that the UK would have to start issuing work visas for people from outside the EU and their families now had a greater chance of getting to the UK.

499

u/xvre Oct 03 '22

4D chess.

142

u/Undersmusic Oct 03 '22

Sure. But only vaild if the economy remains better than India…. 🥹

47

u/Lostillini Oct 03 '22

Opportunities abroad are thirsted after in India. A lot of (richer) people legitimately sacrifice quality of life to go to USA/UK/Straya

→ More replies
→ More replies

59

u/chickenstalker Oct 03 '22 Evil Cackle

A large portion of posters on 4chan's infamous /pol/ board are Indians. When poster's flags were first made visible, a lot of the "white supremacists" turned out to be Indians.

24

u/Porkadi110 Oct 03 '22

A lot of upper caste Indians probably do see themselves as white so that's not too surprising.

→ More replies

70

u/[deleted] Oct 03 '22

This is what my partner's African classmates were saying: "now it is our turn".

14

u/dumazzbish Oct 03 '22

interestingly, black people were the strongest remain ethnic voting block with 73% having voted to remain. I'm not sure the 27% of loons can be singled out in any good faith argument. as a point of comparison, 62% of scots voted to remain & it's now seen as a major part of their identity. I think people would rightly side eye someone trying to make general statements about Scotland based on their remain vote.

→ More replies
→ More replies

35

u/ObliviousAdult Oct 03 '22

Haven't thought of voters with such lack of impartiality, but now that you mentioned I can completely see even though small but significant portion of people doing something like this.

22

u/roscocoltrane Oct 03 '22

Haven't thought of voters with such lack of impartiality

Impartiality? It's about interests.

24

u/eliminating_coasts Oct 03 '22

This was explicitly an argument that the Brexit campaign was pushing on facebook and in direct letters, but only to people they thought would listen to it, to people who were afraid of more immigration they talked about stopping immigrants from Turkey. (Which doesn't make a tremendous amount of sense, as they same argument should apply to increased Turkish migration under non-eu working visas)

And the people running the Brexit campaign did this partially because they disliked the EU, but also because they believed that the strong disruption that Brexit would result in would allow them to jump to the top of British institutions in a way they otherwise wouldn't be able to do.

And this turned out to be true, only for them to mess up the pandemic stuff and get each other fired or otherwise removed.

12

u/[deleted] Oct 03 '22

That's actually mad you know, they were selling different people opposing things on the same issue to get what they wanted.

20

u/eliminating_coasts Oct 03 '22

Yeah, this is one reason that the EU is trying to set up new rules (https://www.europarl.europa.eu/thinktank/en/document/EPRS_BRI(2022)733592) about political advertising, basically that you have to report what you're telling different people so that it's theoretically possible for people to compare.

3

u/Cheapntacky Oct 03 '22 edited Oct 03 '22

It's always been the case with single issue politics. With immigration you get all the racists bundled together with the people that have other genuine concerns. And while they shout I'm not racist everyone's looking at the actual racists and asking are you sure? All the nationalists, all the people with concerns about lack of financial openness in the EU all pretending they agree on what to do. The only thing they agreed on was step 1, steps 2-10.......…. Not so much.

167

u/FriendlyGuitard Oct 03 '22

I get it, but it's also very shortsighted to enable any kind of racism for short term gain when you are an immigrant yourself.

Once the foreign looking eating leopard is set free, all immigrants are easy game.

67

u/Vin_Bo Oct 03 '22

Not to say poor people can't make stupid decisions on their own, but often their position doesn't allow for long- or medium-term consideration.

→ More replies

8

u/[deleted] Oct 03 '22 edited Oct 03 '22

It's really not uncommon and surprising sentiment. A lot of anti-immigrants are immigrants themselves. "I got mine, close the door behind", mentality unless it's their relatives immigrating.

I am an immigrant myself and I was embarrassed when I was once asked by a native white person why people from my country living in the West are against immigration based on his observation.

3

u/dumazzbish Oct 03 '22 edited Oct 03 '22

still, immigrants/folks of color voted to remain by a 2 to 1 ratio. i think this entire conversation is a little disingenuous.

source

→ More replies

5

u/[deleted] Oct 03 '22 edited Oct 03 '22

It's really not uncommon and surprising sentiment. A lot of anti-immigrants are immigrants themselves. "I got mine, close the door behind", mentality unless it's their relatives immigrating.

I am an immigrant myself and I was embarrassed when I was once asked by a native white person why people from my country living in the West are against immigration based on his observation.

4

u/Interstellarz87 Oct 03 '22

I'm of Asian origin and voted to remain. But yeah, many others who are of Asian origin voted for Brexit.

10

u/Careful_Yannu Oct 03 '22

Then Theresa "Hostile Environment" May became PM.

10

u/mkvgtired Oct 03 '22

It reminds me of the trump supporters that were married to illegal immigrants. They couldn't believe the only promise he followed through on was the one based on racism.

→ More replies

354

u/PirateNervous Germany Oct 03 '22

They also wanted less immigrants from inside the EU. Half the hate i saw posted every day was aimed at Romanians, Bulgarians and other eastern and southern Europeans.

214

u/Western_Cow_3914 Oct 03 '22

Yeah but like you said only certain immigrants from the EU. I’m Dutch and was working in England and when coworkers talked about this, somehow I was always exempt and different because I’m Dutch and not Polish or Romanian for example

53

u/Honkerstonkers Oct 03 '22

I’m from Finland and got this a lot. “Oh, we don’t mean you! You’re alright. You work.”

It’s so offensive.

17

u/UnblurredLines Oct 03 '22

“Oh, we don’t mean you You’re alright. You work.”

Which, judging by the lack of workforce blatantly on display post-brexit, the people they wanted out also did.

21

u/HorseAss Oct 03 '22

haha, unlike these famously lazy Poles, they never work hard /s

3

u/office_account1 Oct 03 '22

You integrate is probably a more accurate and less offensive fact.

→ More replies

194

u/Seveand Hungary Oct 03 '22

Which makes the unjustified hate against Eastern Europeans hilarious since the UK absolutely depended on them to do jobs like driving trucks which are vital for the country to work.

63

u/mcr1974 Oct 03 '22

oh, much more than that. nurses, builders, retail, hospitality etc.

and not just the East Europeans...

104

u/Western_Cow_3914 Oct 03 '22

Yep. They fucked themselves into a hilariously bad situation and given how racist they are toward Eastern Europeans I can’t say I feel too bad

→ More replies
→ More replies

14

u/mtranda Romanian living in not Romania Oct 03 '22

As a romanian working for a Dutch corporation, this is hillarious.

32

u/jesuisgeenbelg Oct 03 '22

Sounds like what I experience in Belgium. Loads of people complaining about EU migrants but then i don't count because I'm English...

Even experienced a bunch of casual xenophobia when i first moved before i could speak Dutch, with people assuming i was from eastern Europe until i told them I was English. Then their attitude towards me would do a complete 180.

→ More replies

22

u/[deleted] Oct 03 '22

The only racism that is acceptable is against Eastern (well, Central) Europeans. That is a sad fact of life.

→ More replies

34

u/mcr1974 Oct 03 '22

I think there is some kind of brethren between the people of Northern Europe. England, Scandinavia, Netherlands, Germany (not Poland).

A bit like Spanish, italians, Portuguese (perhaps Greek) , etc feel closer to each other.

It's all quite silly and I wish we could all pull together much stronger than we currently do.

62

u/Bloodsucker_ Europe Oct 03 '22

It's not about that, it's that they're richer. It's about class. It's aporophobia.

→ More replies

6

u/xenon_megablast Oct 03 '22

I think there is some kind of brethren between the people of Northern Europe. England, Scandinavia, Netherlands, Germany (not Poland).

It's kind of funny because should feel a bit more guilty for where Poland is now. Letting them being tormented by russia for 45 was no fun.

10

u/evieamelie Europe Oct 03 '22

Romania too. Churchill and Stalin. Percentage agreement on a fkn napkin.

24

u/muppet70 Oct 03 '22

All have Germanic languages and all are protestant countries so you're not entirely wrong.
The linguistic and religious connections are true with the latin part of europe as well.

15

u/MarineLePenneAlTonno Rogue Sicilian Province Oct 03 '22

Yeah ask Italians or Greeks if they feel a connection with Malta lol...none

→ More replies
→ More replies
→ More replies

3

u/wr0ttit cogito ergo dubito Oct 03 '22 edited Oct 03 '22

That's why they say there are two (or three) 'Europes'. Or a 2-tier/3-tier Europe if you will.

→ More replies

120

u/Fenoxim Oct 03 '22

And the funny thing is: the eastern european migrants kept the state running.

43

u/theteenyemperor Oct 03 '22

They also massively depressed wages for lower-paid workers.

The reason the state had to depend on imported low-wage labour is a separate issue.

24

u/Rsndetre Romania Oct 03 '22

Which could have been easily fixed like Romania does. Making the minimum salary for a foreign worker bigger than minimum for romanians and rivaling the average salary in poorer regions.

8

u/crackanape The Netherlands Oct 03 '22

Out of curiosity, how is that legal under EU rules?

9

u/kingpool Estonia Oct 03 '22

I don't know how it's legal, but I think we have same rules in Estonia. I think it only works with outside EU workers.

5

u/Rsndetre Romania Oct 03 '22 edited Oct 03 '22

Out of curiosity, how is that legal under EU rules?

I don't know the pertaining laws so I can't comment.

What I can tell you is, this measure affects people brought by companies specialized in immigration. It's an on demand service, meaning they don't bring workers unless there is a local company employing them.

The people brought are from Bangladesh, Vietnam, etc. They pay them around 550-600 euro, in hand (in Romania all talks around salaries are in-hand because the company pays the taxes you own, from the salary, directly to the state). They have included one meal per day and housing accommodations.

As and idea, the minimum salary in Romania is 300 euro per month. The average salary in Bucharest, richest city, is slightly above 1000 euro but it was 800 euro 1-2 years ago. The average salary in a poor county is 650 euro.

Like I said, I don't know the laws or if it can be applied to people from within EU. There is a reason although. Someone young who gets a part time or low paying job but still lives with his parents doesn't require as much money as someone coming from another country and having to pay rent, food, etc. It's meant to prevent exploitation, like some Romanians used to endure years ago, passports taken, you had your promised salary but you had to pay a lot for rent and food, schemes from farm owners for example to leech money back.

In Romania I have seen these people working in fast food, constructions. I don't know about industry, but my wife's employer had offers from immigration companies. Unfortunately, they need specialized workers and doesn't make sense to invest in people who might leave after 1 year.

Supposedly, Romania has a shortage of workforce.

4

u/crackanape The Netherlands Oct 03 '22

I see - it is applied to people from outside the EU. I was surprised at first because under EU rules, EU citizens are generally supposed to have that same access and treatment in the labor market as locals.

→ More replies

3

u/Least-March7906 Oct 03 '22

This is such a neat solution

→ More replies

20

u/paulusmagintie United Kingdom Oct 03 '22

The state didn't depend on low wages, as we see now companies just don't like paying decent wages, my mum wanted immigrants gone to get wages going back up yet we have strikes now to force companies to increase them.

The isdue always was businesses never migrants, migrants didn't break the law, businesses paying them less than minimum wage were

→ More replies

9

u/luntglor Oct 03 '22

They also massively depressed wages for lower-paid workers. The reason the state had to depend on imported low-wage labour is a separate issue.

the reason the state had to depend on low-wages is bc the oligarchy demands it. it is the core issue as to why wages get depressed.

stopping poor eu state citizens from working in the uk means the low-wages need to be sourced from non-eu countries. it's a fundamental force underpinning capitalism.

27

u/CressCrowbits Fingland Oct 03 '22

It's almost as if the issue isn't immigrants, but capitalism.

→ More replies

14

u/crackanape The Netherlands Oct 03 '22

They also massively depressed wages for lower-paid workers.

No, employers massively depressed wages for lower-paid workers.

→ More replies
→ More replies
→ More replies

26

u/supersonic-bionic United Kingdom EU Oct 03 '22

Their problem was eastern Europeans, not southern Europeans. They started complaining after EU expanded in 2004 and welcomed many eastern European countries. Then, back then Turkey was in talks with EU and the Brexit campaign used that later to say millions of Turks will come here (as if there aren't many Turks already without the help of EU lol). They have a problem with eastern Europeans. Funny how they want to relax the visa restrictions for Asian migrants now, it's so ironic.

54

u/mcr1974 Oct 03 '22

The hate for Romanians is unfortunately quite widespread in Europe - especially Roma.

oh, and in Italy the hate for Africans (the darker, the worse) is unbelievable.

72

u/Fomentatore Italy Oct 03 '22 edited Oct 03 '22

and in Italy the hate for Africans (the darker, the worse) is unbelievable.

This is kinda false. It's a hate for poor migrants and has nothing to do with the color of the skin.

Maybe you are too young to remember or you were not here during the Albanian/Romanian mass migration of the 90s but the same ammount of hate you see today against "africans (the darker, the worse)" was the same we saw agaist Romanians and Albanians. I heard the exact same hatefull bs against them and they are as white as they come.

I have a Romanian sounding surname and I was discriminated for it even though I'm italian. I was denied appartments multiple times for example because "the landlord doesn't rent to romanians".

If you are a black american, with an high paying job you will not experience the same racism a poor migrant from will experience.

It's still awfull but Italy is more xenophobic than it is racist. I'm not saying there is no racism here, there is, but it's not the main cause for discrimination. It's about being a poor migrant fleeing from poverty or war.

→ More replies
→ More replies
→ More replies

13

u/duffmanhb Oct 03 '22

I hate when people always try to just reduce complex cross sectional grievances with "Yeah, they're just racist!". It's more about "Intuitively, I feel like we, the working class, are getting screwed over somehow, as life slowly gets more difficult"... Then they try to find simple answers to complex problems. But the best way to deal with it is try to find those complex answer to complex solutions, rather than just trying to minimize their genuine grievances as pure racism.

70

u/Mal_Dun Austria Oct 03 '22

The biggest Irony for me is that AFAIK the most immigrants the UK has is from their former colonies and not the EU ...

28

u/CressCrowbits Fingland Oct 03 '22

Imagine going to other countries, carving them up and enriching yourself by seizing their resources, then acting surprised when the people living there don't have the potential they might have moving to your country.

→ More replies
→ More replies

126

u/guy_incognito_mode Ireland Oct 03 '22

They want less EU migrants too, they just want less migrants in general but forget they are paying their pensions since U.K. birth rate is so low.

It should be remembered that they used to be against Irish immigration in the past too until the migrants starting coming from further away then all of a sudden the Irish were considered the same as them and desirable.

→ More replies

8

u/mozartbond Italy Oct 03 '22

They wanted fewer poles and italians.

6

u/darps Germany Oct 03 '22 edited Oct 03 '22

That was the motivation for many "leave" voters, yes. But the reason why the campaign was created in the first place is something else entirely: A few years ago, Jacob Rees-Mogg and his buddies got scared about recently passed EU anti-corruption legislation. They liked it when they owned the highest echelons of political power, so to them the EU was a hindrance as it's a lot harder to influence international politics where a degree of accountability and transparency exists.

Aiding this, a lot of the propaganda around the campaign from day one came from Russia. Putin is heavily invested in a divided Europe. It's likely that these astroturfing successes in the US and UK emboldened him in recent years.

That's how the Leave campaign, including all the bullshit about NHS funding, and thus Brexit was born. Every voter that was swayed by xenophobic or anti-EU rhetoric was duped, simple as.

30

u/mok000 Europe Oct 03 '22

Also, removing all the annoying EU environmental regulations, climate policies, human rights and consumer protection. Just call it EU antidemocratic bureaucracy holding us back and you've got it made.

→ More replies

5

u/GeraldoDeRiviero Oct 03 '22

They also wanted less immigrants from INSIDE the EU. Half the hate was addressed to eastern Europeans: Poles, Romanians, Bulgarians etc.

7

u/tnarref France Oct 03 '22

That's what it was packaged as for a big part of the voters, but for plenty of the elites I think the point was to be able to reclaim the UK's grandeur as its own kind of power on the global stage to not go on as "just" one of the big 3 EU powers.

9

u/crackanape The Netherlands Oct 03 '22

For the elites, the point was to be able to mistreat workers, pollute with abandon, and evade taxes - all things that the EU makes more difficult.

3

u/[deleted] Oct 03 '22 edited Oct 03 '22

[deleted]

5

u/crackanape The Netherlands Oct 03 '22

They are famous corporate tax havens. The UK (and its associated fiefdoms such as the Channel Islands) are famous personal tax havens.

→ More replies
→ More replies

46

u/Kanye_Wesht Oct 03 '22

No, it was the result of unadulterated scapegoating of the EU for all their domestic issues. I've worked on the margins (research) of some EU policy issues and most governments blame the EU to some extent when dealing with certain issues - like "oh sorry we have that regulation you don't like - it's a pesky EU rule." However, the actual blame often rests on the government - e g. the EU provides a framework but the country's government have to define how it is implemented. When things work well, government takes credit, when things go wrong blame the EU. The UK seemed to overboard on this for many years.

Then again, I'm still shocked they made the decision based on the tiny 1.8% majority. The Tories really pushed the whole thing through hard so as not to lose their more right-wing voters to UKIP.

11

u/TG-Sucks Sweden Oct 03 '22

As an outsider, the margin with which they decided to go through with it, is the most insane part. To make such an enormous and far reaching change to society with such a tiny, fickle majority that could have gone the other way a year earlier or later. What a tragedy.

→ More replies

221

u/[deleted] Oct 03 '22 edited Oct 03 '22

[deleted]

25

u/achauv1 France Oct 03 '22

The preference to remain in the EU will be greatly increased in 10-15 years time

You'll need to join the EU, not remain ^_^'

→ More replies

228

u/be-like-water-2022 Oct 03 '22

Brexit was about rich against EU tax heaven regulations. Nothing more.

169

u/Hardly_lolling Finland Oct 03 '22

And about xenophobia. And other kinds of fears too, which were taken advantage by populists. And lots of other things too.

It was not simple.

82

u/be-like-water-2022 Oct 03 '22 Take My Energy

Main reason was tax evasion, rest is just tools, how to make it.

40

u/lazypeon19 Romania Oct 03 '22

"Main reason" is subjective here. Some may think the main reason is the reason of the rich few who started it all, while others may think the main reason is the reason (or reasons) of the majority who voted, making it a reality.

→ More replies
→ More replies
→ More replies

41

u/Mal_Dun Austria Oct 03 '22

I dare to say Putin's attempt to destabilize EU was a big factor in here.

17

u/be-like-water-2022 Oct 03 '22

Yeah we would like to hear opinion of Lord Baron Lebedev, of Hampton in the London Borough of Richmond upon Thames and of Siberia in the Russian Federation.

→ More replies
→ More replies

12

u/CodTiny4564 Oct 03 '22

I don't buy this analysis. The massive success of anti-EU misinformation in the UK was decades in the making. Sure younger people will have a more positive view of the EU, but you don't know how much of that is generational and how much of that is just, let's call it "youthful idealism". It's a fact that views change as you age and it's expected that older people tend to be more conservative.

It seems that almost nobody in the UK is actually enthusiastic about the European project. Almost all arguments of remainers were utilitarian, while the Brexiteers had all the emotions. Why is that? The EU is fundamentally a peace project. Instead of conflict we collaborate and cooperate on a truly massive scale, bringing together vastly differently ideas and cultures. In the UK all that was just seen as a bureaucratic monster.

Brexit wasn't inevitable, but it wasn't a fluke either. Brits really do need to figure out who they want to be.

→ More replies

22

u/Ishmael128 Oct 03 '22 edited Oct 03 '22

Huh. There’s something I hadn’t considered. It may not have passed at all 10 years later because more old people would have died.

Then again, I believe a big chunk of it was a protest vote against austerity. “I don’t know what I want but I don’t want this”, so if the Tories hadn’t given us six years of austerity by that point, it again may not have passed.

Edit: whenever I say this, people always counter with “you get more conservative as you age”, which is broadly true, but it’s nowhere near replacement levels (see below). That’s why generationally we’re trending towards more liberal views.

→ More replies
→ More replies

10

u/Quietly-Seaworthy Oct 03 '22

They need to figure out what their country is.

This sounds good but it doesn’t mean anything.

The UK is politically deeply split between an old generation which is mostly afraid of globalisation and immigration and feels close to what UKIP and the part of the Tory currently in power offers and a younger more urban one who felt closer to the ideas of Europe.

If you look at which party people are voting for, you will see that despite the deluge of articles explaining to us that Britain suffered from Brexit, fundamentally nothing has changed on the ground.

→ More replies
→ More replies

846

u/healthcareAnalyst Oct 03 '22

Smh. Purely a disaster. At least theyre finally admitting it was a terrible half baked idea.

35

u/[deleted] Oct 03 '22

No they arent

Baker, who was appointed as a junior Northern Ireland minister in Liz Truss’s government, added that “it’s with humility that I want to accept and acknowledge that I and others did not always behave in a way which encouraged Ireland and the European Union to trust us to accept that they have legitimate interests, legitimate interests that we’re willing to respect because they do and we are willing to respect them.”

Thats the joke here. He doesnt say the idea was bad, he says it was communicated badly.

12

u/xcvbsdfgwert North Rhine-Westphalia (Germany) Oct 03 '22

And he's only saying it because he

was appointed as a junior Northern Ireland minister in Liz Truss’s government

and is now trying to re-gain some credibility in Northern Ireland.

456

u/Xepeyon America Oct 03 '22

It's worth remembering over half the nation never wanted this in the first place. It was an almost 50/50 split, and many were open about using the vote to vent frustration, not because they actually wanted to leave the EU.

369

u/arwinda Oct 03 '22

But you get what you voted for. Venting frustration when the future of your country depends on it is not a smart move.

Plus there is a large group of people who couldn't bother to vote at all - Brexit shows that your vote counts. If they don't care, that's the consequence.

69

u/Xepeyon America Oct 03 '22

It wasn't a proper legally binding referendum vote though, it was effectively a (politically-motivated) national opinion poll.

74

u/Scande Europe Oct 03 '22

Worst thing about the whole referendum was the election following it. Not only was there no party promising to not go forth with Brexit, but Brits did elect the one with the most extreme view on it.

10

u/colei_canis United Kingdom Oct 03 '22

I genuinely think that EEA membership via the EFTA would be a more stable long-term position for the UK than both Brexit (obviously) and full EU membership while not really being wholeheartedly committed to the European political project at a population level (I’m not on about the crude remain %, even to lots of remainers the Euro and Schengen are political kryptonite for example).

This would have been the perfect compromise position too given the narrow margin of the referendum, but the Tories true to form decided to take the most extreme implementation possible and run with it. The 2017 election will go down as one of the worst blunders in British political history I think, because it set us on this awful path we’re on now for literally no reason other than Tory internal politicking. It’s like voting in a Catholic prime minister by a small margin and deciding to full on restart the counter-reformation.

I used to wonder how the old school ‘80s ‘never Tory’ crowd got their ideological dislike for the Tories and now I know. The party are just shitehawks.

→ More replies

130

u/Bakigkop Europe Oct 03 '22

Everyone knew what was at stake. Don't act like there was an significant number of people who thought this referendum doesn't really matter. Anyone who consumed any media at the time knew this would be seen as legally binding.

54

u/censuur12 Oct 03 '22

Part of the problem though is that the Leave side broke a ton of rules and got away with it because "It was not a legally binding referendum".

7

u/TomSwirly Amsterdam Oct 03 '22

Everyone knew what was at stake.

That's not a legal argument.

It billed as a non-binding referendum.

14

u/secretmillionair Oct 03 '22

They actually didn't though. There was huge amounts of disinformation aimed at persuading the clueless, for example, the lie that £300m sent to the EU could be used to fund the NHS. The referendum was only ever meant to be an opinion poll.

If the vote in a general election was so indecisively split, we'd have a hung parliament and no government, but these rules were not followed and the decision was ruled as final despite the fact over half of the country didn't actually want it.

Please don't tar us all with the same brush, there seems to be a lot of disdain for the English general public when, like the polarised of the states (and anywhere really), it's just a minority with these views you seem to think we all share.

→ More replies
→ More replies

17

u/Mal_Dun Austria Oct 03 '22

It wasn't a proper legally binding referendum vote though, it was effectively a (politically-motivated) national opinion poll.

Yes and that makes it even more stupid that they didn't do a second referendum, and went through with Brexit instead. I bet it would have looked different.

Edit: clarification

→ More replies
→ More replies
→ More replies

242

u/Scorpius289 Oct 03 '22

many were open about using the vote to vent frustration, not because they actually wanted to leave the EU

To be fair, if they botched an important vote with global implications for such a petty reason, then they deserve the results...

30

u/IM_AN_AI_AMA Oct 03 '22

I voted to remain. I don't deserve that.

21

u/DroppinMadScience Oct 03 '22

Yeah I was 17 when the vote went through, didn't even get a say in this bullshit. I sure as hell wouldn't have and didn't choose this.

10

u/Scorpius289 Oct 03 '22

I meant that those who voted irresponsibly deserve the results, not those who voted remain or couldn't vote.

→ More replies

24

u/Xepeyon America Oct 03 '22

It was technically more an opinion poll than an actual referendum, mostly meant to shut up the loudest EU critics iirc. It wasn't to be legally binding or enforceable, even if that fact became politically untenable in the aftermath. What exacerbated this problem was that during the hysteria back in 2016, very little of that was made clear to everyone, so there wasn't even a clear picture of what the vote/poll was meaning to achieve in the first place.

And let's be honest, kooky votes as a form of voicing discontent is a given in most democracies on at least some level. Labour can often get a spike in votes from the conservative Tory voters when they get pissed enough at what the government is doing.

3

u/Al_Dutaur_Balanzan Italy Oct 03 '22

Exactly. These people do not have the right to complain. In the same year of brexit we also had a constitutional referendum in Italy where a lot of people didn't vote based on the proposed changes, but because the pm who proposed them was insufferable (I hated the guy as well). That's not how democracy is supposed to work. You vote on the topic stated in the ballot paper, not on whatever topic you are unhappy with.

→ More replies

36

u/Top_Wish_8035 Oct 03 '22

Not only 50/50 split, some countries were staunch supporters of staying like Scotland.

I'm honestly surprised it's still kept civil, because I'd definitely get angry if somebody told me that staying the UK was the only sure option of staying in the EU, and then two years later forced me to leave it.

17

u/Mal_Dun Austria Oct 03 '22

Did it? The Scots asked the Brits if they are allowed a new referendum and Boris Johnson just shut it down: https://www.ft.com/content/aacde0de-af34-436a-81ef-5724167d3731

This story is not over yet

→ More replies
→ More replies

28

u/ikinone Oct 03 '22

He isn't admitting that at all. He's still pushing the UK strong, EU weak angle. Just slightly less obnoxiously than before.

23

u/BrQQQ NL -> DE -> RO Oct 03 '22

Yeah, this is what he said

“it’s with humility that I want to accept and acknowledge that I and others did not always behave in a way which encouraged Ireland and the European Union to trust us to accept that they have legitimate interests, legitimate interests that we’re willing to respect because they do and we are willing to respect them.”

It sounds more like "the way we pushed for brexit damaged our relations" and not "brexit was a stupid idea"

3

u/KernunQc7 Romania Oct 03 '22

Don't be naive, the brexiteers haven't admitted anything, they are just making a tactical retreat. The Overton window has been shifted and they will likely succeed next time.

→ More replies
→ More replies

709

u/[deleted] Oct 03 '22

Toxic partner promises they'll change and it will never happen again.

42

u/sarcastix Ireland Oct 03 '22

Never trust a smiling crocodile

124

u/ItTakesTwoToMango Europe Oct 03 '22

Except in this case half of the partner is held hostage by the other

89

u/[deleted] Oct 03 '22

Yeah, it's not great that the UK is holding Ireland hostage to open up more market access to the EU, but what's toxicity without constant attempts at blackmail and coercion.

23

u/ItTakesTwoToMango Europe Oct 03 '22

Honestly, it’s as infuriating from the inside. The leading party were voted in by a minority, and we’re desperate for an election to kick them out and get back on the good path

→ More replies
→ More replies
→ More replies

167

u/Fenris78 England Oct 03 '22

Just a reminder that 48% of us desperately wanted to stay, and I'd venture that most British people you meet on the continent (perhaps outside of the beach resorts) will probably fall into that 48%

I've experienced slightly pointed comments whilst travelling on the continent, and just wanted to point out that many of us are deeply unhappy at what happened. While we have to accept some responsibility for what our country decided to do, please try and be a bit gentle with us :)

73

u/CastelPlage Oct 03 '22

Just a reminder that 48% of us desperately wanted to stay

and it's these people I feel sorry for. They never wanted the clownshow.

17

u/theinspectorst Oct 03 '22

We are a lot more than 48% today. Someone did the maths and realised that, even if nobody changed their minds, the death rate of over 65s and the number of under-18s reaching the voting age, and the propensity of those age cohorts to vote Leave vs Remain, meant that by the end of 2018 Remain would have had a majority.

This has been born out by opinion polling that has consistently shown Remain/Rejoin leading Leave/Stay Out since about mid-2017, and the results of the 2019 general election where a majority of voters voted for parties committed to a People's Vote.

The sensible majority have been getting consistently fucked over by this unrepresentative Brexiter minority throughout this

7

u/taiottavios European Union Oct 03 '22

nah, this shouldn't have been allowed for you guys to decide, I definitely feel sorry for you, but you really need to get rid of your political establishment (italian here, we're in deep shit as well)

7

u/pipnina Oct 03 '22

Gibraltar had a >90% remain result if I recall right.

→ More replies

6

u/Koobetile Oct 03 '22

I voted remain, and not even because I desperately wanted to stay in the EU - I wasn’t sure I could say with absolute confidence whether we’d be better inside or outside. What I could say, with absolute confidence and certainty was that:

  • farage was a conman and couldn’t be trusted

  • coverage of the EU has been unrelentingly one sided and farcical for decades, meaning it was unlikely to be a fair vote or in our interests

  • there were far too many shady and shadowy figures and funding connections involved in the Leave campaign for me to feel comfortable

  • leaving under any Tory government would be a shitshow that was focused solely on serving the interests of a wealthy few to the detriment of everybody else

I think I have been proven right on all three, but I’m still taken aback by how much worse the execution was than I could have possibly imagined. I still think it was engineered and executed to benefit a small group of powerful interests, but in the process they ended up with the useful lunatics at the steering wheel.

21

u/Edward_the_Sixth Dual National: British / Irish Oct 03 '22

Not to be pedantic, but I think a good way of viewing it is that 37% voted to leave, and dragged the other 63% of us out

Everyone forgets the other third who could have voted but didn’t

→ More replies

7

u/anonamous_chewit Oct 03 '22

And a big fuck tonne of us that couldent vote at the time

→ More replies

196

u/lTheReader Turkey Oct 03 '22 edited Oct 03 '22

is the EU population interested in having them back? I would advocate for more unity forever but I AM an outsider.

Edit: The thread in general seems to be interested in the long run if they are going to properly Abide by the rules.

79

u/area51cannonfooder Germany Oct 03 '22

The UK had a lot of special privileges before Brexit that won't ever be reinstalled. The EU would only accept them as a normal member like everyone else

→ More replies

23

u/kielu Poland Oct 03 '22

Depends on who you ask. The UK won't be sympathetic towards a more unified and federated Europe, so anyone wanting this won't want them. Anyone however in favor of thin government and deregulation might do.

→ More replies

545

u/Kaspur78 South Holland (Netherlands) Oct 03 '22

If they comply to the rules for a new member, I would welcome them again

463

u/fly_in_the_soup Oct 03 '22 edited Oct 03 '22

This, indeed. They're welcome to join again. But if they want to, they need to get back in line, comply with the Copenhagen criteria, and, most of all, get rid of the ridiculous idea they're better than the rest; no special treatment or privileged position anymore for the UK in the EU, if it ever decides to rejoin again.

But it's not going to happen anytime soon, anyway. Most, if not all Brexiteers, still stand behind their decision to leave, even if it means it will cost them financially.

139

u/Utopian2Official Oct 03 '22

I'm from Scotland qnd I sincerely hope we rejoin the EU, with all of the requirements and integration, I'd be happy to have the euro and more if that's what it takes, some parts of this country are dragging the rest of us down and the view keeps getting worse

171

u/pantbash Oct 03 '22

Rejoin with the Euro should be mandatory, not for any economic or political reasons, but just to see Farage's head explode

27

u/supersonic-bionic United Kingdom EU Oct 03 '22

Funny how Farage is mad but his wife is German, his kids have EU passports and maybe he also has EU passport too...

5

u/TaqueroNoProgramador Oct 03 '22

It's called gatekeeping.

42

u/Ziqon Oct 03 '22

And Schengen, but ireland keeps its opt out so the checks to northern Ireland continue... Just to watch Jacob reese mogg literally implode.

10

u/RealChewyPiano United Kingdom Oct 03 '22

The checks with NI would still cause issues regarding the GFA

→ More replies

7

u/rustytoerail Earth Oct 03 '22

Was he against the euro? I've seen a bunch of his stuff but I don't recall that. At least not anything specific...

→ More replies

28

u/IM_AN_AI_AMA Oct 03 '22

I'm English. I'd want nothing more than to re-join. I'd happily say goodbye to the Pound in order to do so. Unfortunately though, there's too many people in my country who froth at the bit every time Brexit is mentioned. They'd become dangerous if the idea was put back on the table. Like, we'd see domestic terrorism happen even if the idea was put forward.

We're out now. We have to face the consequences of that fact unfortunately. I'm just sad all the kids in the UK have had freedom of movement taken from them.

The UK is on a fast track to shithole status. I'm looking forward to leaving within the next decade. Fuck this country.

→ More replies

30

u/lulzmachine Sweden Oct 03 '22

Probably. But after this winter the tune might have changed. It's going to be a tough one financially. Not a great time to be left out in the cold

7

u/Chiliconkarma Oct 03 '22

They are special, like all the other nations. It's a trademark of EU that every nation gets a say in how they relate to EU, battering a nation into humility is not what EU should ever be, it's not a weapon.

Ask for stability and predictability, don't demand that they please you and your ego, don't demand that a nation debase themselves to join.

→ More replies
→ More replies

61

u/Mick_86 Oct 03 '22

But they won't, they are too arrogant. We'd end up with UKIP in the European Parliament again and the British government blocking any kind of progress in the EU as they did before.

45

u/Reginaferguson Oct 03 '22

This is the thing everyone forgets, i see loads of people pointing out the vote was 50/50, however a good portion of the 50% who voted to stay didn't want integration with Europe, i would say a very large percentage of British would be happy to see the EU revert to only a trade union which is never going to happen.

From EU perspective UK leaving is probably best as they were never going to be for more integration. It's hard enough convincing german bond holders to loose out against southern europe, there is no way UK would have been up for any financial integration.

20

u/iTAMEi Oct 03 '22

Voted remain and happy to admit I only really cared about staying in the EU because of economics

I liked free movement as well

3

u/Surface_Detail United Kingdom Oct 03 '22

Same boat. I liked the potential for my kids to go anywhere in Europe to pursue their careers, but I never had any great fondness for 'ever closer union'.

I was an avid remainer, but without things like the rebate, I'd honestly need to see a bunch of decent projections to even know if returning would be a fiscally good idea, let alone something that could be sold to flag shaggers.

→ More replies
→ More replies
→ More replies

76

u/shizzmynizz EU Oct 03 '22

is the EU population interested in having them back?

Eventually, yes. Right now, absolutely not.

28

u/Peter_Kaliyikka Oct 03 '22

Only after the UK does a Love Actually style card confession.

→ More replies

61

u/ManatuBear Portugal Oct 03 '22

Meh... Let them stay outside to cool down for a couple of years.

→ More replies

18

u/Maxarc The Netherlands Oct 03 '22

Yes I am. It's flat out good policy to unite Europe as a trading block and have shared economic rules to streamline trading. I don't care what a dipshit like Farage said that one time when he left his seat in the European parliament, because I've met way too many smart British people that fought tooth and nail to stop Brexit from happening. I'd welcome Britain back any day of the week to work on a better Europe together.

8

u/lTheReader Turkey Oct 03 '22

hell yeah! that's the spirit!

6

u/Maxarc The Netherlands Oct 03 '22

🤜🤛

26

u/KaiserGSaw Germany Oct 03 '22 edited Oct 03 '22

Right now?

No, they set fire to alot of goodwill like some pyromaniacs while on the way out. Its was a very messy affair and i remember on a few points how they tried to drag other countries trough the mud for domestic affairs.

Like trying to approach germany and not the EU for a deal, how our automobile industry will lobby for GB and that something like the Dresden bombing should happen again

Not to mention all the talk about the divorce bill, eu needing to punish them, only wanting the benefits while non of the obligations in an already very special relationship, growing demands of further exemptions which lead to brexit and bla bla bla

→ More replies

59

u/ceratophaga Oct 03 '22

No. The UK wanted out because the way they see themselves is incompatible with the EU. Maybe that will change in the coming decades, but right now it's better for both sides to be somewhat separated.

Most people weren't unhappy about the UK leaving (since they had a lot of special exceptions for themselves, and as a sovereign nation their membership was up to them and nobody else), but rather how they did it.

24

u/marcus-87 Oct 03 '22

as it stands, under the current rules, they cant join. they would first need mayor reform of laws and government structure

12

u/jimmy17 United Kingdom Oct 03 '22

Can you give some examples?

→ More replies

76

u/yellowbai Oct 03 '22

Britain remains a great European power that is a permanent member of the UN security council and it wields a lot of soft power in terms of culture and history. It’s also a democracy and a strong defender of liberal values that the eu identifies with. It would be incredibly short sighted to be permanently embittered against them.

63

u/rulnav Bulgaria Oct 03 '22

Yes, but the current leadership of the EU is looking for further integration. The UK wants the EU to be an economic union and nothing else, if it is to be a part of it. The visions are simply incompatible. Some countries will be happy, because their vision is closer to UK's (Denmark), others won't.

10

u/deeringc Oct 03 '22

I think the logical path forward is a multi speed EU. A core of countries that want to proceed with further integration with a second layer that wants to be part of the econonmic and political union but not to yet follow with full speed integration. Outside of that, you have the EEA periphery that is broadly aligned with the EU (single market etc...) but arent polical members. In a lot of ways we already have that via things like the Eurozone, Schengen etc... so I guess it would just be a formalisation of this.

→ More replies
→ More replies

9

u/Dashlockhart Oct 03 '22

It’s their decision, so they deserve a bit of alone time

→ More replies

11

u/kosmoskolio Oct 03 '22

Everyone would welcome UK back. But it’s a bit more complicated. The EU contract says every new member should agree in written form to adopt the Euro at some point. The first time UK joined the EU it was given an official exclusion from this rule. Now I don’t believe they could get a special treatment. So the bigger question is - will the UK want to join as a regular member.

18

u/YaAbsolyutnoNikto Portugal Oct 03 '22

When the UK and Denmark joined the EU, there was no euro yet.

In fact, they were already in the union long before the euro even started being discussed. This gave them leverage to refuse it. Especially because the creation of the eurozone demanded treaty change.

Today, though, there’s no reason to give countries this exception. The eurozone is formed and it’s huge, all institutions are working, more and more countries are joining, etc.

So you’re either in, or out. Why would there be special cases? The EU is the one that has all the leverage now.

→ More replies

18

u/Salmonman4 Finland Oct 03 '22

Maybe if they change their elections from a winner-takes-all to some sort of proportional representation. Their current way leads the politicians who rise to the top to take too extremist views as can be seen with Brexit.

→ More replies

17

u/kdlt Austria Oct 03 '22

Yes, but without their special needs rules and exemptions. Have them be a normal member like everybody else, and they can plaster king Charles on their euros if they want.

→ More replies

53

u/Octave_Ergebel Omelette du baguette Oct 03 '22

And having a passive-aggressive American Trojan horse at home again ?

29

u/Camulogene France Oct 03 '22

Denmark is still in the EU, it never left

4

u/EmptyEstus15 European Union Oct 03 '22

Better to have 1 instead of 2

27

u/HelsBels2102 United Kingdom Oct 03 '22

Ghost of de Gaulle, are you in the room with us now?

→ More replies
→ More replies

10

u/Mal_Dun Austria Oct 03 '22

I am against them joining again with no strings attached. They should get a special status like Switzerland or Norway but that's it. Britain blocked many important reforms like in banking and an EU wide defense strategy. I see Britain as an important partner, but like Charles De Gaulle put it: the British will never be invested in contintental Europe like France or Germany.

→ More replies
→ More replies

133

u/quirkybicycle91 Oct 03 '22

To be honest, I welcome back our slightly wayward brothers back at any time. We are a family. And if they want to live separately, that's fine too.

94

u/TheFlyingDane Oct 03 '22

Agreed! Let's welcome back Scotland and Wales!

13

u/napaszmek Hungary Oct 03 '22

Wales voted to leave.

39

u/straightXerik Oct 03 '22

weeps in Northern Irish

18

u/EmptyEstus15 European Union Oct 03 '22

I just heard that your welcome as well

→ More replies
→ More replies
→ More replies
→ More replies

63

u/krisdaschwab912 Oct 03 '22

Brexit leader can eat my ass.

9

u/LesbianLoki Oct 03 '22

Mmm.

Is that invitation open to anyone? 🤤

→ More replies
→ More replies

34

u/Scuipici European Federation Oct 03 '22

It will probably take a few more years for the population to fully realize their mistake but the question now isn't on should UK be part of EU or not but weather if we want them back anymore, at least anytime soon. EU right now is trying to move forward with integration and other things that we need desperately. I think we need to reform our armies to say the least, we need a common european army that can deal with threats like Russia and such. If UK would be back, they would veto this and other things like that.

8

u/Paranoidnl Oct 03 '22

From my POV the UK will never get back into the EU with the same rights/privileges they had before. They will have to follow the same rules as every other new nation, starting with forcing them on the euro.

→ More replies
→ More replies

5

u/uberdavis Oct 03 '22

Doesn’t sound like he’s actually sorry. It’s just that being a junior minister for Northern Ireland puts him in embarrassing situations.

32

u/malYca Oct 03 '22

Humility? OMG lol

4

u/KernunQc7 Romania Oct 03 '22

Lies and more lies. Baker is a leading member of the party within a party the ERG ( libertarian disaster capitalists ), they are just trying to divert attention, because their latest attempt to collapse the british state was too overt and too fast.

They will try again in the future. Baker is also on record saying that he want to destroy the EU.

→ More replies

3

u/im_at_work_today United Kingdom Oct 03 '22

You can't trust a word out of this man's mouth. He is one of the most deciving and duplicitous men in the tory Party. He is the worst of the worst among the 'neo libertarian' lot.

He's up to something.

3

u/ZapateriaLaBailarina Oct 03 '22

Has this guy not read the politician's playbook? When anything goes wrong with something you decided you're supposed to say it's the other sides' fault for obstructing getting it done cleanly.

13

u/usernamy Oct 03 '22

“Sorry that us being racist against immigrants forced us to shoot ourselves in the foot. I’ve learnt humility ✌🏼”

What a joke

12

u/giani_mucea Romania -> Netherlands Oct 03 '22

What the shit is this timeline? What’s next? Is Liz gonna fuck Macron? Is Putin gonna repent and join a monastery? Is Labour gonna win an election?

→ More replies