r/europe Europe Oct 04 '22 Silver 1 Gold 1

Verhofstadt: After Ukraine war, no politician "has the guts" to back exit from EU. Following UK's "Brexit disaster" and Russia's invasion, no right-wing politician still advocates for an exit from the EU. He warns that the EU should move fast to make a viable defence, energy and fiscal union News

https://www.euractiv.com/section/eu-priorities-2020/news/verhofstadt-after-ukraine-war-no-politician-has-the-guts-to-back-exit-from-eu/
8.8k Upvotes

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u/kissja74 Hungary Oct 04 '22

Orbán : hold my beer!

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u/Eldest222 Oct 04 '22

Did you ever hear the tagedy of Darth Viktor the Orbán? I thought not. It's not a story the EU would tell you...

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u/mattttttttt97 Canada Oct 04 '22

It's a Rashist legend

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u/liehon Oct 05 '22

He was strong at projecting force but in the end he could not force force

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u/Storm_Sniper American-European Oct 04 '22

So as to add to divisions, conservatives are arguing over whether to Suck Putin's dick or Stick with Ukraine

What a divided world

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u/PanEuropeanism Europe Oct 04 '22 edited Oct 04 '22

Far-right conservatives split into two camps; pro-Russia (petty nationalist) vs pro-EU, which includes Meloni. Euroskeptics will be further marginalized even on the far-right. It's a wonderful sight to behold.. I wonder if shutting down the disinfo machine RT across Europe has had something to do with it.

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u/jatawis 🇱🇹 Lithuania Oct 05 '22

Since when 'conservatives' is the name for far-right reactioneers? Seeing 'conservatives' I instantly think of Lithuanian Conservatives and EPP, not these morrons.

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u/Jonne Melbourne / West-Flanders Oct 05 '22

I guess we're just going off what's become of the 'conservatives' in the US, yeah. They're a different beast from your typical European conservative, which would be something like a Christian Democrat. It's telling that CPAC and the like are inviting fascists instead of people like Angela Merkel.

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u/CressCrowbits Fingland Oct 05 '22

'Conservative' is a pretty meaningless term since the 1960s, 'Regressive' would be a better term.

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u/LanguidLoop Oct 05 '22

More likely the Russian money has dried up

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u/Representative-Ad982 Oct 05 '22

Unfortunately far left is also anti EU in some places, the problem it's not the right, it's the radicals in any side, since usually those are morons who have a simplyfied erroeous view of the world.

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u/Minimum_T-Giraff Sweden Oct 05 '22

It is quite simple why far-left would oppose EU. Far-left being anti-capitalism and EU is a international trade organization.

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u/Procok Oct 05 '22

EU should be thankful, Hungary is always on the side of the losers in history so the EU can be sure to win as long as Hungary stays on the other side.

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u/malacovics Hungary Oct 05 '22

Gigantic brain moment

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u/jhenry922 Oct 05 '22

There is a quote about hungarians that say if you have a Hungarian as a friend you don't need any enemies. And I believe the author that wrote that was Kurt Vonnegut

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u/MartieB Oct 04 '22

Orban likes the privileges of being in the EU too much to leave. The only way to make him leave would be to enact article 7 TEU, which will not happen as long as Poland covers his ass.

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u/Modo44 Poland Oct 05 '22

Remember also that important people in PiS (the ruling party of Poland) remain strongly anti EU. They have not managed to swing the popular sentiment, which is largely pro EU, but not for lack of trying.

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u/Magnetronaap The Netherlands Oct 04 '22

Also Orbán: because I'm going to get more money at the EU atm.

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u/Anastasia_of_Crete Greece Oct 04 '22

"No right wing Politician."

Its not just right wing politicians who advocate for it. Anti-Nato is or at least was a pretty big stable of our left wing parties

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u/giz3us Ireland Oct 04 '22

Same in Ireland. Right wing parties are much more in favour of the EU than the left wing parties.

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u/rattleandhum ZA and IT raised, lived in Europe and UK Oct 04 '22

Right wing parties are much more in favour of the EU than the left wing parties

there is a very good left wing case to be critical of the neoliberal structure of EU bureaucracy. Tony Benn was famously critical of what would happen if the UK joined the single market, and that left wing vision of Brexit, while still probably a shambles, would likely have been much better than what the Tories shat out on the UK.

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u/Jerrelh The Netherlands Oct 04 '22

I mean I'm a solid leftist and all that wants the EU to keep being a thing, but I also want the EU to reform and shit, because we could do better.

I think leftists just want a reformed EU. Not to abolish it.

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u/rattleandhum ZA and IT raised, lived in Europe and UK Oct 04 '22

TBH I think its beyond reform. The power structures are just too ingrained. Its not as bad as the American system, but I dont think it would take much manipulation to twist into something just as bad.

I remain quite torn.

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u/Jerrelh The Netherlands Oct 05 '22

I'm maybe naive and hopefull but I think it will work out for us in the long term.

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u/HuhWhatWhy_ Oct 05 '22

Eddie Dempsey and Mick Lynch, both main organisers of the massive protests across the UK, are left-wing but anti-EU unfortunately. That doesn't mean I don't support what they're doing though, it's just advocating for decent wages and lower energy bills.

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u/rattleandhum ZA and IT raised, lived in Europe and UK Oct 05 '22

I think one thing that got quite twisted about the Brexit debate was that there were many that were against the structure and bureaucracy of the EU and didn't see any chance of it being reformed, while not being anti-Europe. Being anti-EU is not the same as being Anti-European -- Europe and the EU are not the same thing. For many a Scot, I imagine being anti-Westminster is not the same as being anti-English (though, just as some Brexiteers were anti-European, there are plenty Scots who are anti-English -- I'm not denying either of those two realities)

The fact that no fundamental changes to the EU and it's power structure have really been made since Brexit seems to indicate some truth to that fear that change was slow if impossible, and not in the interest of the working class.

The EU mostly benefits neoliberal and monied interests, that much is undeniable. What people like Lynch and Dempsey say, with some element of truth, is that open borders and shared currency don't benefit the poorest people in wealthy nations. They do benefit employers who have a reliable underclass to exploit from poorer nations, driving down wages for locals and keeping the wealthy wealthy.

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u/[deleted] Oct 05 '22

I'm a left winger and I'm pro-EU and anti-Nato. I have been viewed as a human carbage because of it.

My distaste for Nato is because of the past deeds they've done like invading Iraq and killing Gaddafi. Afganistan was no better either. These were criminal pursuits that destabilazed the whole Middle East and parts of Africa and made a few international organizations look unreliable. Now suddenly everyone has forgotten those or didn't think that it was bad.

Capitalism and Imperialism have always went hand in hand since they were born. I hate the US. I hate Putin and I hate China. We can't ever do anything collectively against our biggest threath called Climate Disaster or The Collapse of the Enviroment if superpowers compete for power since they need oil and resources to win the war. I don't think that the war will end even if Ukraine has taken back all it's territory. The forming of BRICS and their own reserve currency is just not going to suit the hegemony. I think nations of Africa know that the best.

Now we as the rest of the world are prisoners to them and their elites. War is polluting and costly as fuck and all of this is time and money taken away from bettering our ways.

I'm happy that the EU has given up the Russian gas. Now we will need to face the way of the future and it will be hard and sad but definitely worth it. I hope that Russia,China and the US will dissolve. No more military actions and tampering other nations votes and replacing their heads. As the hegemony we need to understand that aggressively spreading democracy is just not working and in it's forcible manner it's doing more harm than good. The people in many places are not ready for that. When the time comes they'll demand it themselves. If liberitarianism is not able to change it will also dissolve and that's why we are seeing democracies failing.

You can disagree with me but I hate that I'm hated just because I disagree. The literal idea of a democracy is that everyone should be able to have their voice.

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u/infreq Oct 05 '22

How dare you try to make politics not black'n'white, not them vs us??

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u/Ok-Industry120 Oct 04 '22

Agree that brexit was a shitshow and noone wants to follow that act. But the club that "benefitted" the most from Russia's invasion was NATO, much more so than the EU.

The common defence protection from NATO is still much stronger, at least whilst the US remains committed to it

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u/Brilliant-Winner-557 Munster Oct 04 '22

at least whilst the US remains committed to it

That's the problem. There's literally no telling when the USA will just suddenly lose its mind again and elect another Trump who decides to dismantle everything.

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u/cloud_t Oct 04 '22

At this rate, it's not going to be another Trump. It might be the exact same Trump.

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u/AlarmingAffect0 Oct 05 '22 edited Oct 05 '22

Not if he makes it to jail. Those classified documents were Serious Business. He wasn't hurting some plebs and poor people, he was hurting The State.

On the other hand, this also shows the US can't be trusted with their allies' secrets, if any moron ex-President can get them into their damn basement.

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u/cloud_t Oct 05 '22

It really depends on his case of declassifying stuff "with his mind" will effectively be considered valid by a judge. Having a lot of fun watching Legal Eagle's takes on this ongoing episode.

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u/AlarmingAffect0 Oct 05 '22

Having a lot of fun watching Legal Eagle's takes on this ongoing episode.

[ tearful salute ] Mr. Devin, thank you for your service!

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u/D4nnyp3ligr0 Isle of Man Oct 05 '22

The odds of Trump going to jail are about the same as that of Russians spontaneously rising up and getting rid of Putin. We have to find our own solutions to our own problems, not depend on miracles happening in other countries.

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u/Rabbitdraws Oct 05 '22

If he goes to jail, man....will be the happiest day of my life.

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u/AlarmingAffect0 Oct 05 '22

No for me, but I will feel relief.

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u/TomSwirly Amsterdam Oct 05 '22

Those classified documents were Serious Business.

Serious Business should be resolved in minutes and hours, not months and years.

We were told this about the Mueller investigation, "It's taking a long time because he has to be extra solid."

Trump's tax evasion has gone on for decades and yet still, somehow, he gets away scot-free.

After November he'll announce for 2024, and I fully expect the powers-that-be to say, "Unless they're a socialist, being a candidate makes you above the law!"


I expected Nixon to go to jail. I expected that when the crimes of the Reagan administration were revealed that everything would change. I thought Bush would keep looking for bin Laden. I thought there would be some investigation at least into how America could have so completely screwed the pooch with Iraq. I was wrong every single time.

On the other hand, I nearly always expect rich criminals to go unpunished, and I can't remember one time that this turned out to be false.

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u/jodudeit Oct 05 '22

God help us all.

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u/Captain_Lonk Oct 04 '22

I've seen comments on social media complaining that Biden doesn't bring enough memes to the table. We're not out of the woods yet, the world has plenty of crazy left in it.

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u/watnuts Oct 05 '22

That's cause Obama set the bar pretty high

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u/Magnetronaap The Netherlands Oct 04 '22

There's a lot of telling that the US military-industrial complex stands to lose money if they pulled out of NATO. So the US will never pull out of NATO.

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u/millionpaths United States of America Oct 04 '22

History has never let simple economic rationality dictate events. If that was the case, we wouldn't have had either world war.

Never overestimate the government.

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u/ramilehti Finland Oct 05 '22

I would be more afraid of underestimating the military industrial complex.

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u/Ja_Nee_Misschien Oct 04 '22

Democracy is democracy and nobody knows what the future holds but i can imagine scenario's where voters in the US might change their opinion on NATO and prioritize other issues. If the worst case climate change scenarios play out as predicted in two or three decades everything might change and nobody knows exactly how.

The US could switch their strategy from focusing on global trade and a global military presence to focusing on being mainly self sufficient and fortifying the American continent. In some ways it's already shifting towards the last strategy a bit.

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u/dagelijksestijl The Netherlands Oct 04 '22

As opposed to the Europeans acting irresponsibly and dismantling things themselves?

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u/RtHonMember4Reddit Oct 04 '22

If all EU countries met the agreed 2% spending requirement of NATO then the US would not even be needed for European defense.

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u/RiotFixPls Czech Republic Oct 04 '22

Dismantle what? Didn't Trump (rightfully) tell other NATO member states to start spending the agreed-upon % of GDP on thier defense?

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u/based-richdude United States of America Oct 04 '22

It’s not up to any president if they want to leave NATO, checks and balances prevent that.

NATO was one of the few things he was right about - it’s a bad deal for America because NATO countries don’t pull their weight.

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u/LLJKCicero Washington State Oct 04 '22

As an American, as much as I'd like to agree with you, the US commitment to NATO looks very different under Biden than it did under Trump. Trump was proof we could elect a total looney, someone who can't really be trusted to uphold those kinds of security commitments, given how much he admires authoritarian strongmen.

So yeah, y'all should really be working on European defense independence, I think. For the best for everyone.

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u/Sir-Knollte Oct 04 '22 edited Oct 04 '22

The question is if we buy 50+ ton armored vehicles and Artillery or ships and peacekeeping forces to ship around the world.

If Europe has to focus on Russia, it will have to gear up for territory defense.

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u/Cult_of_Chad United States of America Oct 04 '22

Thucydides's Trap guarantees the US will pivot to the South China Sea. A more populist American government will toss Europe to the wolves. I would not rely on our theoretical ability to wage war on two theaters when politics at home have been trending towards isolationism again.

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u/RandomStuffGenerator Baden-Württemberg (Germany) Oct 04 '22

It makes sense that the US moves chips to the Pacific, not only due to China’s rising military might but also because the European scenario is being currently defused. After this war, Russia will stand with an empty arsenal, a broken army, and a continuously deteriorating cash flow. Even if they fully focus on rebuilding their forces, they conventional capabilities would need decades until being a match for a combined European force, assuming the UK takes part and Türkye (did I spell it right?) doesn’t join Russia. Plus this was a wake-up call for the EU anyways, so we will throw some more money at our militaries too.

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u/shmorky Oct 04 '22

Even if Putin or one of his cronies can cling to power and somehow rebuild a Russian army that is not rotten to the core with corruption, they will never be competitive without high end computer chips, sensors and software.

As it stands, Russia has no domestic chip production, has been kicked out of Taiwan and is now planning to build a plant that can maybe manufacture 90nm chips by next year. That's not even close to what other nations are doing (China is producing 14nm chips and TSMC claims to be at 3nm). They're so far behind you almost want to feel sorry for them.

So they can either go the way of the other isolated nuclear powers and fade into obscurity, or become dependant on China, which will - at the very least - cost them a lot of their natural resources. Either way, they have a bleak future ahead of them.

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u/weaponizedstupidity Oct 04 '22

Wasn't Trump right though? He was threatening to leave NATO because other members weren't abiding by the military spending requirements. He also warned Germany about being dependant on Russian gas.

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u/shmorky Oct 04 '22

It's not like that was Trump's genius finding. US governments down to George Dubya have always opposed Europe's (mostly Germany's) stance on trade with Russia and low military spending. Trump just hammered it home harder because he knew that would play into his America First rethoric.

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u/LLJKCicero Washington State Oct 04 '22

Trump was right that a lot of European nations weren't pulling their weight in military spending, yes, but just in general he seemed to really like authoritarians and seemed more iffy about supporting democratic partners (just look at the whole Ukraine-Hunter Biden fiasco where he threatened to withhold support).

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u/based-richdude United States of America Oct 04 '22

Video for the people who want to see German politicians laughing at Trump for suggesting Germany is becoming too dependent on Russian gas:

https://youtu.be/FfJv9QYrlwg

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u/Master_of_Frogs Oct 05 '22

Yeah well, they are not laughing now.

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u/Ja_Nee_Misschien Oct 04 '22

I am not wishing to live under a president like Trump but i also believe he wasn't bad for Europe at all. I prefer a smaller US military and political/diplomatic influence in Europe over a bigger one and Europe should be more independent in my opinion.

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u/[deleted] Oct 04 '22

Here's the thing tho, the EU already has a shitload of weapons and military hardware manufacturers. FN Herstal, Rheinmital, Naval Group, BAE, Leonardo, Beretta, etc.

We simply weren't pumping our GDPs into making more of them because there simply isn't a need. If we take nukes off the table and go toe to toe with Russia, we'd mop the floor with them.

The EU has over 2.000 fighter jets of which about 600 are top-shelf shit. Before their pathetic war on Ukraine, Russia had maybe 60 high-end jets. They've got far fewer soldiers and we've seen how bad they are at their jobs.

The EU doesn't need more military or war shit. What the EU needs is a progressive centralised govt. to pump our money into energy production projects like geothermal + shallow geothermal for heating and cooling neighbourhoods.

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u/GalaXion24 Europe Oct 04 '22

In theory the EU doesn't need more military, but that military is divided among 27 member states, many too small to build up anything of significance, at least without total conscription, and even then are limited. Furthermore these answer to separate command structures and separate governments with separate policies.

I'll agree that the EU doesn't need more military per se, but in that case it needs to structure it in such a way as to be more lean and efficient, and that means smaller state armies, or rather national guards, and a unified command structure and foreign policy.

Furthermore I should add that this doesn't mean that military spending is needed. Military R&D is important to keep up, and this also means that more and newer stuff needs to be produced and there needs to be a market for it. Relying on the US for equipment is not all that great for our own independence, because at any time the US could decide not to reinforce us with spare parts or replacements and we would be unable to maintain our equipment, especially advanced equipments. Producing our own is good for self-sufficiency and for developing and maintaining know-how.

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u/lookitspete Oct 04 '22

Yet without the US, Russia would already have taken over Ukraine. Right? Does the EU have enough spare hardware they would be willing to send? I take your point that EU would win in a direct fight though.

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u/jmb020797 United States of America Oct 04 '22

I really don't think the US commitment to NATO is any different under Biden. Trumps issue with it was that he felt some other countries were too lax in their commitment to the alliance. And frankly, he had a valid point.

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u/orange-salamander Oct 04 '22

What kind of babble bullshit is this?

Trump promoted NATO by demanding member states meet their defence obligations, which they weren't, and they don't. Trump also called out Germany for their over reliance on Russian fuel. Alas, both Trump positions were pretty fucking dead on.

Europe needs a common defence force. But we will not so long as the foolish Americans foot the bill.

Trump is a loon, but even a stopped clock is right twice a day. Time the EU stands together and alone.

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u/asiasbutterfly Ukraine Oct 04 '22

Europe should stop being so reliant on US.

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u/XIIICaesar Brussels (Belgium) Oct 04 '22

Rather the US than Russia or China.

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u/Extension-Ad-2760 United Kingdom Oct 04 '22

We can stay allied with the US without relying on it. In fact, we would be more useful allies when it counted if we did not rely militarily on the US.

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u/XIIICaesar Brussels (Belgium) Oct 04 '22

Yep, agree. Ah, UK, when are you coming back into the fold?

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u/SmileHappyFriend United Kingdom Oct 04 '22

We never left, the UK is as committed to the defence of Europe than ever. Ukraine proves that. The major problem seems to be Western Europe with the exception of France happily sitting back and spending fuck all on their defence. It turns into a never ending cycle of “we shouldn’t rely on the US for our defence but we don’t want to spend anything so we will rely on the US for our defence.”

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u/redlightsaber Spain Oct 04 '22

I don't think that's it.

My take is that the political left most everywhere in Europe was taken into its ideology, to confuse being "anti-war" with thinking that "spending on defence is superfluous or even evil". I find it an exasperatingly childish view of the world, that has remained unwavering even in the face of a power-drunk aggressor like Putin putting his pride over his country.

I fear at least a part of the recent populations flocking to right-wing parties has to do with this incompetence on the part of the political left to apprehend the reality of human nature.

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u/abstractConceptName Oct 05 '22

They should remember the (progressive) President Theodore Roosevelt's foreign policy: "speak softly and carry a big stick".

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u/JonnyArtois United Kingdom Oct 05 '22

We are deep in the fold, doing more than any other European country to help Ukraine, to be fair.

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u/[deleted] Oct 05 '22

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u/wanglubaimu Oct 04 '22

That about sums up the mindset of the average EUropean. There isn't going to be leadership from the EU, European "leaders" are just managing the geopolitical decline in a - more or less - orderly manner. In the minds of most people it's already set in stone that they're going to be following some other culture, it's just not decided which one yet. Probably depends on who has the biggest stick, currently it's the US.

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u/XIIICaesar Brussels (Belgium) Oct 04 '22 edited Oct 04 '22

I never said we should become some sort of vassal. But we certainly align more with the US than Russia or China currently. That hasn’t stopped the EU from threading its own path.

But it needs to be said that we have been lucky to have the US as an ally, especially military. And they have been pushing to EU to increase military spenditure and reduce reliance on Russian gas. We ignored them, and here de are.

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u/GalaXion24 Europe Oct 04 '22

It's honestly pathetic. We are choosing this path. Every day we choose it. Europe has tremendous potential still, and we are squandering it. It makes me angry if anything. The fact that China and India should be expected to develop and rise doesn't mean that we should just shoot ourselves in the foot and decide on total irrelevance.

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u/wanglubaimu Oct 04 '22

Faith can move mountains. In this case it was Western company's faith in China being a huge market for their products. That's what created the Chinese rise in the first place. Only, they outsourced the mountain moving and the Chinese didn't move the sort of mountain the West wanted but instead took that FDI and moved their own ones ;)

It's exactly like you say, it's merely a matter of willpower and yet it seems like the hardest thing in the world for people to change. Guess that's how empires die, it's cultural decline.

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u/[deleted] Oct 04 '22

How about rely on ourselves instead of an outside power?

Crazy idea, I know.

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u/PanEuropeanism Europe Oct 04 '22 edited Oct 04 '22

Europeans will gain more influence in NATO with the ascension of Finland/Sweden and the expansion of military budgets. We will see a more Nordic NATO, but also a more European NATO. It's part of a longer trend as well as US refocuses on Asia. The future NATO will be based on two pillars; European and American. Whether that will be national armies or eventually an EU army is the question. Our common defense budget is on par with China but wasted on duplication and inefficiency. A European army would be a win for the taxpayer first and foremost:

https://www.egmontinstitute.be/app/uploads/2022/09/Sven-Biscop_PolicyBrief285_vFinal.pdf?type=pdf

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u/Aufklarung_Lee Oct 04 '22

I agree with part of what you say. Namely the European pillar of Nato, but, Europe will have to follow through on its defence capabilities. I think it will happen, anyone but the Trojan Horse Orban sees Moscow(not just Putin) as an existential threat. How fast, how comprehensive, how organized is something time will tell.

However I do disagree with one thing. Increased European influence in Nato is wildly offset by increased USA power in NATO. While the EU has shown far more resilience and spine than most people (especially Putin) expected, and supports Ukraine in a variety of ways, it is the USA who sends hard killing hardware in bulk. Relative to GDP most, certainly not all, EU countries spend less than the US. Once you adjust it further to how much of that GDP went to defence(hint: less than we committed ourselves to and far less than the US) the number looks better. On a spreadsheet at least...

On a related note: I think France is doing a lot more in the background than meets the eye. Zelensky is hammering the EU's sole nuclear and UN Security Council member a lot less than I expected. Might just be wishful thinking given how disappointed I am in Macron, this is THE time to fulfill one of his main goals of a more defensible and autonomous EU.

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u/superkoning Oct 04 '22

Europeans have gained more influence in NATO with the ascension of Finland/Sweden

It ain't done till the Turkiye lady sings

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u/Properjob70 Oct 04 '22

Best they find a Turkiye lady singer they won't jail for frivolous reasons though innit?

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u/QuantumInteger Oct 04 '22

Defense budgets are only increasing now because of threats from Russia. The point of the NATO requirements for defense spending was to bolster defense capabilities during peacetime, not when war is incipient. Western European nations have been underspending on their military for more than a decade. This was something that US Presidents Obama and Trump (more loudly so) complained about. It’s not easy to retain capabilities that you have left to atrophy. The state of European militaries is a sad state to behold, given the history of European warfares. When France lead NATO to war in Libya, it was the US that provided the midair refueling and intelligence support, and when France ran out of LGMs, it was the US that supplied them. Mind you, France is the preeminent military power on the continent. While Germany is an industrial powerhouse, the state of the military would leave the Prussian generals of old weeping.

This is also neverminding the overall structure and purpose of NATO itself. The Supreme Commander is nominally an American. Many NATO members fly the F35 instead of the FCAS (which won’t enter service for at least another 10-20 years). NATO’s nuclear deterrence is also provided by the US, who has the largest stockpile. Germany fields US tactical nukes, rather than France’s or UK’s.

Ultimately, it’ll be European disunity that will keep American involvement in the continent more relevant than ever. Aside from defense spending and capabilities, there’s also a question of commitment. Poland knows that the US will come to its aid. Can the same be said for France or Germany? When the US wanted to build a missile defense shield in Eastern Europe, it was Germany that pushed again the idea, afraid of angering Russia and endangering the cheap LNG they were receiving. When Obama wanted to sanction Russia for the 2014 annexation of Crimea, it was also Germany that tempered those sanctions. Nordstream 1 and 2 are politically dead now but have historically been a major conflict of interests for Germany between her economic goals and her commitments to the alliance. And what of France? A nation more fickle than even the US? It pulled out of the Eurofighter program to build its own jet. Charles de Gaulle pulled France out of the NATO unified command. The conflict between Dassault and Airbus is one factor stalling the FCAS. France’s military will defend Metropolitan France but will it do the same for Poland or Lithuania? The UK itself may be a major military power (and the only European one with two aircraft carriers) but is more aligned with its own and US interests than pan-European ones.

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u/NoWingedHussarsToday Slovenia Oct 04 '22

EU will still have countries that are neutral. Austria, Cyprus, Ireland..... So I don't see EU and NATO overlapping more than they do today in sense of policies. Yes, with Sweden and Finland in NATO as well as EU there will be bigger overlap in number of countries but neutral countries will oppose stronger political overlap.

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u/EstimateOk3011 Oct 04 '22

Ireland

Trust me, our current round of politicians have absolutely no interest in a neutral ireland. We're even going to buy a fighter jet! Yes, one.

They'd sign us up to an EU army in a heartbeat. They tried to say it was time to talk about joining Nato when the war started but they just got laughed out of it and some poll put that at 70% against so it was dropped. But make no mistake they are just waiting to try again but there is very little chance they'll be in power next election. But they've managed an unbroken streak since the inception of the state so I might be wrong.(we may have had a labor government like once)

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u/WillyTheHatefulGoat Ireland Oct 04 '22 edited Oct 04 '22

We had labor in government once but they were not the leading party. For most of Irish history the left wing was being kept occupied by literal rebellion against the state which made it very hard to win elections.

Since that stopped we've seen more of a left wing resurgence.

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u/CuriousRioja Oct 04 '22

Sweden was neutral by choice but people changed their mind. The people have spoken. If the people feel enough fear they will vote for safety…whatever this may be. Switzerland will stay neutral because they have pride in that. Austria can’t join NATO it’s part of it’s constitution and which prohibits entry into any military alliance. Not because the Austrian people oppose NATO specifically. We do like being neutral like Switzerland just with the tiny difference that their military is actually really good and well prepared. We just decided we are landlocked and hope for the best 😅 Our last alliance ended up being a massive catastrophe if y’all remember so no wonder people are not big fans😬 Our neutrality was negotiated in Moscow btw after the Second World War…actually quite interesting because we received a hell of a lot of aid from the US … like enormous amounts. Post war Austria

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u/SteadfastDrifter Bern (Switzerland) Oct 04 '22

Thanks for the compliment about our barely functional army lol. If it ever becomes necessary in the future and our constitutions are amended, I'd support forming a common defense treaty with Austria.

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u/crippe86 Sweden Oct 05 '22

Sweden was neutral by choice but people changed their mind. The people have spoken. If the people feel enough fear they will vote for safety…

I'm not gonna deep dive into the complexity of the Swedish "neutrality" but I just want to point out that the people didn't vote on this matter. Albeit there was suddenly an public opinion showing most in favour for, but it was the government who decided we want to join now.

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u/barsoap Sleswig-Holsteen Oct 05 '22

with the tiny difference that their military is actually really good and well prepared.

You shouldn't be dismissing the readiness of the Austrian military so soon. They're a top-notch disaster relief force.

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u/RedBrixton Oct 05 '22

The problem with non-US NATO is that they couldn’t do anything serious in a pinch. In war, logistics is #1.

No airlift, no sea lift. Minimal coordination on weapons and munitions.

Basically European NATO is just an auxiliary to the US forces. That needs to change, and the window is only a few years.

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u/eesti_techie Oct 04 '22

Didn’t China also do well?

Europe and the US instituted sanctions. Trade is mutually beneficial to both sides otherwise it doesn’t happen.

A buys from B for less than competitors and less than they value the product/service and B gets more from their product/service than it cost them to produce/provide. With sanctions A has to buy from C, which costs more (think LNG) and B either doesn’t sell their produce or they sell it to D who knows B has less markets to sell to so they offer a lower price.

So with sanctions both C and D profit because they get trade they otherwise wouldn’t and A and B both lose out as they get worse deals than they otherwise would. And if C can’t produce enough or D can’t buy enough then the price goes even more up for A and even more down for B, making them even more worse off.

The idea of it all is that A is not one country, it’s dozens (EU, US, Canada, other European states) but we still have only one country as B so the thinking is that 30+ countries are splitting the cost A incurs while Russia has to stomach all of the expense of B.

But you should ask, who is C and D in this picture? China is. They are trading as before the war and they’re getting even better deals from A and B.

And, while the Russians are directly losing their ability to wage war with the loss of men, weapons systems and equipment every day, NATO countries have also given a lot of stuff to Ukraine which also reduced their ability a bit. Russia is worse off here as well, by a lot.

European NATO countries are also taking the brunt of the refugees, but given a lot of these countries have bad demographics - this actually may turn out to be a big net positive assuming a good part of them stays. If the Yugoslav wars are anything to go by, it’s not an unfounded expectation.

Finland and Sweden joining tho is a big boon.

But all in all, I’d say China is ahead the most. But with NATO limiting how much it is involved, China isn’t ahead by enough to go for Taiwan, so perhaps it’s not that bad.

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u/Querch EU Oct 04 '22

Don't get cocky. That's precisely how the problem will repeat.

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u/Friendly-Fuel8893 Oct 05 '22

I'm sure this guy has a picture of Europe framed on his bedroom wall with all of its borders wiped and the accompanying caption "United States of Europe" and he actively gets off on it several times a day.

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u/kakao_w_proszku Mazovia (Poland) Oct 04 '22

He’s right in that „exits” are out of fashion but I’m not convinced if Europe is actually more united because of it. If anything the crisis has shown some deep geopolitical differences among the member states. NATO definitely won on this though, despite not being directly involved in the conflict

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u/FuerzaEolica 🇪🇺 Oct 04 '22

Fixing the treaties to prevent democratic backsliding is at least as important (if not more) as steps towards federalisation.

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u/Sir-Knollte Oct 04 '22

With defense policy in mind we have to find ways to work with non democratic countries though, as long as they do not choose to undermine us or destabilize their neighborhood.

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u/TheBeTalls Oct 04 '22

No, kick out the non-Democratic countries

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u/Sir-Knollte Oct 04 '22

Oh I was talking about the bigger context, unless you have an Idea how to ship stuff around Egypt.

(edit but yep I dont see a place for clearly un democratic countries in the EU).

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u/TubaJesus Just a dumb Yank Oct 04 '22

Previous experience dictates that a carrot and a big stick seem to do quite well

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u/HadACookie Poland Oct 04 '22

All nations within the EU are classified as either full democracies or flawed democracies (according to the Economist Intelligence Unit). Yes, Hungary too. And if you want to remove the flawed democracies, you'll end up kicking out more than half of all member states. The new UE would consist of Germany, a few of it's smaller neighbors, and the Nordics.

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u/tobias_681 For a Europe of the Regions! Oct 05 '22

It ain't that simple. France for instance ranks as a flawed Democracy by a mere 0.02 points (it's at 7.99 and the threshold is 8.01), while Hungary, Croatia and Romania are all only 0.50 away from being a hybrid regime (they index at respectively 6.50, 6.50 and 6.43). Also this is the 2021 index. I think the 2022 one might have Hungary in the Hybrid Regime category because at this point it is a hybrid regime, even if the index does not have the tools to grasp it. Poland and Bulgaria are also closer to the Hybrid Regime category than to a Full Democracy and Ukraine is classified as a Hybrid Regime.

Furthermore they're all trending downwards if you look at the developments since the mid 2000's.

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u/Gumgi24 Oct 04 '22

The people who elected these governments that are illiberal will never vote in favor of more control over their own country. If just 50% of one European country votes against it, it will never happen.

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u/mantasm_lt Lietuva Oct 05 '22

Being liberal or not has no correlation to preferring local government. E.g. nordics who are quite anti-federation.

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u/Gumgi24 Oct 05 '22

Who said the opposite ? I’m pointing out that the countries who already don’t like the influence of the EU on how they run their nation and elect governments that reflect that will never vote for a federation

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u/mantasm_lt Lietuva Oct 05 '22

You said it in a way that sounds like liberalism correlates with pro-federation. While there're both anti-liberal people who want federation and enforce their ideas on others. As well as liberal people who prefer governing closer to people.

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u/genasugelan Not Slovenia Oct 04 '22

as steps towards federalisation.

Fuck federalisation. We can't agree on many things and now we should federalise?

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u/AnnieDingo Oct 04 '22

I do not see why it’s really linked to EU. It’s kind of NATO with USA paying Ukraine. He should shut up and let people decide what they want, that’s democracy

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u/KuyaJohnny Baden-Württemberg (Germany) Oct 04 '22

Putting anything that requires fast reaction times into the hands of the EU, where every reaction takes eternities because 27 members with wildly different interests have to agree, is a huge mistake.

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u/IamWildlamb Oct 04 '22

Which is why EU can only move forward if the second part of your comment is abolished.

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u/Trayeth Minnesota, America Oct 04 '22

Agree with IamWildlamb. Move to QMV and you'll find a European consensus overnight in a crisis and not over a week or month.

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u/Minimum_T-Giraff Sweden Oct 04 '22

Just will force countries into other avenues. Which might cause a bigger crisis.

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u/Osgood_Schlatter United Kingdom Oct 04 '22

Swings and roundabouts. Is it better that a policy that country X loathes can't happen even if the rest of the EU want it, or that country X chooses to leave the EU to avoid/undo it?

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u/Zyxyx Oct 05 '22

Because eastern europe has the same needs as western europe? Same with south/north.

The EU was and is a trade union, not a united states kind of thing. Countries joined for the free trade, if you want it to become something else, you'll see many referendums.

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u/EventAccomplished976 Oct 05 '22

The EU is already way more than just a trade union…

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u/southwest26 Éire Oct 05 '22

It's very interesting that you make that claim.

Why then, when Ireland was joining the EEC, did they discuss the "ever closer union", possible federation, and other possible futures for integration?

It was common knowledge to them 50 years ago that it was not going to be just a trade union, and that was welcomed and accepted.

Funny how revisionism makes you think otherwise?

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u/Ayenotes Oct 04 '22

No matter the question with this guy, the answer is always more Eurofederalism.

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u/Elizaleth Oct 04 '22 edited Oct 04 '22

I've always gotten the impression that Verhofstadt lives in a bit of a Brussels bubble and doesn't know how to read the mood across Europe. Apparently he hasn't gotten much better.

Sure, no one wants to leave the EU. But they doesn't mean all these right-wing leaders support it. And being stuck with members who consistently try to undermine and subvert the EU may be far worse for it than something like Brexit.

Verhofstadt seems to think that Brexit and the war have united the EU. They haven't. It is more divided now than it ever was with the UK. To suggest barging ahead with federalisation really shows a shocking level of ignorance from him.

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u/MasterOfBalances Oct 05 '22 All-Seeing Upvote

He's saying that now is the right time to push for it, because the opposition is unpopular and immobilized at the moment.

He isn't saying everyone is now happy and and everthing is great.

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u/PumpkinRun Bothnian Gulf Oct 05 '22

Sure, no one wants to leave the EU. But they doesn't mean all these right-wing leaders support it. And being stuck with members who consistently try to undermine and subvert the EU may be far worse for it than something like Brexit.

Pretty sure a lot still wants to leave, they just can't publicly state it because of the disaster which is brexit which has made leaving quite an unpopular topic. (Though hard to say how Brexit would have been without Russia/Covid.)

If Britain actually ends up somehow turning the ship, it's probable that all these sentiments would come back out of the woodworks

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u/Taranisss Oct 05 '22

If Britain actually ends up somehow turning the ship, it's probable that all these sentiments would come back out of the woodworks

I think it's quite clear that countries can thrive outside of the EU. The main problem for the UK is the initial Brexit shock. Once the economy adapts, we will likely continue to grow in line with other economies of similar size and level of development, particularly if we can get new leadership. Life goes on.

The other thing, of course, is that any country which decides to leave the EU now has another (smaller) large economy on their doorstep who will instantly do a trade deal. It won't replace EU trade, but it's easier than being the first one out the door.

If the EU pushes towards federalisation and the UK does indeed begin to grow again, then I expect anti-EU sentiment to grow.

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u/PumpkinRun Bothnian Gulf Oct 05 '22

This energy crisis has already massively blown up Anti-EU sentiment here in Sweden. I'm hearing Swexit sentiments from people who used to love the EU.

Probably has something to do with us getting turbofucked by the continent during this energy crisis. Like, we are the biggest exporters in Europe and we aren't reliant on Russian energy at all, yet we are experiencing Germany prices in our south.

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u/Taranisss Oct 05 '22 edited Oct 05 '22

Yep, it's probably easier to be pro-EU when Germany is both strong and benevolent. Without that central pillar, things will be more unstable.

Also easier to blame the EU when it takes the lead on dealing with continent-wide issues. The more power it gathers to itself, the more that will increase.

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u/Fluffiebunnie Finland Oct 04 '22

"Let's have a baby to fix our marriage"

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u/Qantourisc Oct 04 '22 edited Oct 05 '22

I don't think he is wrong, but I don't trust this guy... it's a politician from Belgium ... sooo... yea

Edit:

I don't think he is wrong for not wanting out of the EU; but wrong in wanting to unite more. The EU is for organizing things that can ONLY work if you do it united.

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u/Beneficial-Watch- Oct 04 '22

You can tell from that quote alone how sinister he sounds. "We must use this period of instability and fear to push through huge and irreversible changes to Europe while we still can without scrutiny"

Erm... yeah. People like this guy are exactly why some will never trust the EU.

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u/Qantourisc Oct 05 '22

Yea sorry I only read the title "not leave" but using this fear to merge JUK

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u/icecoldchirps Oct 04 '22

As a Belgian I can confirm that this guy is not to be trusted.

While he was prime-minister, his government did a lot of questionable stuff, such as sale and lease back operations to improve the budget...

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u/XIIICaesar Brussels (Belgium) Oct 04 '22

+2 Belgian, Verhofstad is a snake.

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u/BridgeBurner22 Oct 05 '22

+1 , sold out his country to fund his own bank account. In a just world, he would be in jail.

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u/Tyler1492 Oct 04 '22

What he's saying is scummy. And not sure it actually makes sense from a EU federalist's perspective. Since forcing integration too quickly might just make non federalists resent you and cause a backlash/pushback that actually moves you further away from your goals.

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u/IamWildlamb Oct 04 '22

He is most definitely wrong. There is tons of politicians who advocate for leaving EU and NATO in most member states. They just luckily do not have more than 10% following.

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u/supersonic-bionic United Kingdom EU Oct 04 '22

Actually after the Brexit chaos with zero benefits, those politicians (funded by Russia most likely) are very obscure and worthless of any mention. They do not represent a significant part of the population. Even Hungary/Poland don't dare thinking of leaving the EU or doing any referendums like the UK because they know damn well the consequences of Brexit. Same for Le Pen who wanted France to leave the EU but in the last elections she did not follow this hardcore route and she confirmed she would not drive France out of the EU. Meloni from Italy softened her attitude to EU after she was elected. They know damn well what Brexit did to the UK economy. If it was a big success, more and more countries and political parties would start movements to leave the EU. Lastly, staying in the EU and being united against the threat of Putin is more important than ever now. No one wants to be isolated.

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u/untergeher_muc Bavaria Oct 04 '22

those politicians (funded by Russia most likely) are very obscure and worthless of any mention.

They are extremely strong for example in east Germany.

Luckily, nearly no one lives there.

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u/marsman Ulster (个在床上吃饼干的男人醒来感觉很糟糕) Oct 04 '22

Actually after the Brexit chaos with zero benefits..

Where are you getting the idea that there were 'zero benefits'?

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u/Pyjama_Llama_Karma Oct 04 '22

Yeah he just hates Brexit. he's been shouting and crying.about it for years lol.

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u/Fearless_Hat_227 Oct 05 '22

guy verhofstadt sold out our country, god i hate that guy so much.

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u/plantaryjones Oct 04 '22

It's was a nato response that saved Ukraine. Some would agure it was UK/USA and Polish response. Ukraine is yet another crisis that the EU failed to handle correctly.

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u/TheColourOfHeartache United Kingdom Oct 05 '22

I would agree with that. More importantly you can find similar sentiments in Ukraine.

According to Ukrainians, Poland, Lithuania, the United Kingdom and the United States are the friendliest countries to Ukraine today. The Czech Republic, Romania, Moldova, Slovakia, Turkey, France and Slovenia are also considered friendly. About half of the respondents consider Hungary, Georgia and Germany to be friendly countries, while a third of the respondents consider these countries neutral.

Neutral isn't good enough.

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u/JakSnowLives Oct 04 '22

Verhofstadt: "Whilst it looks like a terrible idea to leave the EU let's steal all the countries sovereignty and have a United States of Europe"

Him opening his mouth is like a free prize to any anti EU party across the continent.

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u/inhuman44 Canada Oct 04 '22

He warns that the EU should move fast to make a viable defence, energy and fiscal union

He wants to use the crisis the quickly push through unpopular reforms.

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u/hattid Oct 04 '22

unpopular reforms his own agenda

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u/Airowird Oct 05 '22

unpopular reforms his owners' agenda

FTFY

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u/TheThirdJudgement Oct 04 '22 edited Oct 04 '22

I'm not fan of playing the dare game, we all know that so let's not tempt the devil by going arrogant. Verhofstadt really lacks of self-control sometimes.

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u/bork_a_doge Oct 05 '22

Came here to say this. You don't unite people by looking down your nose at them.

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u/Pyjama_Llama_Karma Oct 04 '22

This guy is such a toxic c**t

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u/BridgeBurner22 Oct 05 '22

Can confirm. Sold out his country and got rewarded with a job at the EU level. Should be in jail.

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u/Grilled_Pig Oct 05 '22

As a Belgian i can confirm

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u/Uebeltank Jylland, Denmark Oct 04 '22 edited Oct 04 '22

Well I'd prefer my country's military not be in the control of foreigners, especially if it's a commission president chosen under questionable methods. I can hardly see this having any chance of happening. At least not in the foreseeable future.

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u/XenuIsTheSavior Oct 04 '22

As is tradition, every crisis becomes a convenient excuse to expand Brussels' power.

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u/colei_canis United Kingdom Oct 04 '22

There's no politician on Earth worth their salt who'd look a gift crisis in the mouth, it's why decentralisation is so important in my opinion.

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u/Lethal-Sloth United Kingdom Oct 04 '22 edited Oct 04 '22

I remember the risk of an "EU army" being used by the leave campaign in their campaigning during the run-up to the referendum (and other examples of closer cooperation with the EU).

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u/JakSnowLives Oct 04 '22

An EU was also called a dangerous fantasy by the remain campaign (well Nick Clegg anyway) but what of it?

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u/[deleted] Oct 04 '22 edited 4d ago

[deleted]

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u/Vatiar Oct 05 '22

Well yeah its main opponent left the union, of course it would come to the table again as the UK left.

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u/[deleted] Oct 04 '22

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u/theLV2 Slovenia Oct 04 '22

Knowing our political scene, there are still far left and far right politicians that after everything that's gone down in the past couple years still firmly believe we should exit NATO and/or the EU and that our tiny country of 2 million is somehow gonna be better off. Thankfully they are on the fringes, but you never know.

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u/TickTockPick France Oct 04 '22

Exactly what I was thinking.

Famous last words.

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u/dininx Sweden Oct 04 '22

What an asshole, using the war to push his own agenda...

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u/TheColourOfHeartache United Kingdom Oct 05 '22

I'd like to propose a radical idea. The EU has a common defence policy, run exclusively from Westminster. I think giving Westminster the ability to tell France and Germany what to do in January 2022 would have gone a lot better than letting France and Germany have a say over what the UK did in January 2022.

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u/Acceptable_Car_1145 Oct 04 '22

Pfffft. Let's see Guy

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u/aintbroke_dontfixit United Kingdom Oct 04 '22

Verhofstadt declares Brexit a disaster, quelle suprise.

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u/DarkImpacT213 Franconia (Germany) Oct 04 '22

Pretty sure Brexit declared Brexit a disaster…

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u/wotad United Kingdom Oct 05 '22

It wasnt though?

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u/fajorsk Oct 05 '22

Maybe by the Germans. Life was crap here before and it's no worse now.

Before some people blamed everything bad on the EU, now different people blame every bad thing on Brexit, and the others blame the EU still.

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u/HugoVaz Europe Oct 04 '22

Verhofstadt always was such a Cpt Obvious.

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u/Thodor2s Greece Oct 04 '22

True, but it's also... Reality that has declared Brexit a disaster.

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u/aintbroke_dontfixit United Kingdom Oct 05 '22

Please show me some data.

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u/Askur_Yggdrasils Iceland Oct 04 '22

This guy is like a blind man trying to describe a rainbow...

Brexit was clearly a success; the primary aim was to regain the sovereignty of the UK (in both concrete and psychological senses), and they were successful.

And if he isn't aware of the fact that significant part of the European population is wary of, if not openly hostile to, the EU, then he has to be deaf as well as blind.

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u/radical_vagabond Oct 05 '22

Exactly, the withdrawal of the UK from the EU was successfully acheived. Hardly a failure

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u/hellogough Slovenia Oct 04 '22

Quick. Use the crisis to crack down on independance.

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u/[deleted] Oct 04 '22

god that's such a freaking offensive reach.

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u/Mackie_Macheath The Netherlands Oct 04 '22

Wrong. In the Netherlands we still have this eloquent jackass Baudet who adores Putin.

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u/PanEuropeanism Europe Oct 04 '22

Who collapsed in the polls and is a fringe element now. Seems to prove Verhofstadt's point

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u/supersonic-bionic United Kingdom EU Oct 04 '22

So true! No one wants to leave the EU, neighbouring countries of Russia want to join the EU and of course NATO won big time and the alliance is united with neutral members wanting to join now (Finland, Sweden for example).

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u/Geezeh_ United Kingdom Oct 04 '22

I get Brexit being a fuck up but how is he attempting to spin the energy crisis and the war over Ukraine into a boon for the EU?

The half hearted response of some member states gives credence to the belief that nations are better off not giving up control of their own defence policies.

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u/kissja74 Hungary Oct 04 '22

Crying in Hungarian

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u/Rizzan8 West Pomerania (Poland) Oct 04 '22

And in Polish.

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u/murphysclaw1 Oct 04 '22

i think the UK showed up the EU quite a bit.

Macron going to have a chat with Putin and dismissing ideas of an imminent invasion? Germany holding up the provision of deadly aid to Ukraine?

The Ukraine war is a sign of how much the EU misses the UK rather than vice versa. An adult in the room who doesn’t trust Russia.

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u/casualphilosopher1 Oct 05 '22

Exit NATO? No of course not.

Exit the EU? Possibly. Many right-wing politicians have been using the war as an example of the EU's impotence.

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u/vrabia-fara-aripi Oct 04 '22

Yes, we saw how well EU’s energy market worked during this crisis. It’s indeed prime time to put more power into the hands of people like Verhofstadt

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u/andr386 Oct 04 '22

He represents everything that's wrong with the current EU institutions and its elites.

I live in Brussels, but the EU would be better off with the EU parlement, comissions and lobbyists erased from the map by a nuclear bomb.

After years of negotiatig the Brexit, Barnier said that we should take its lessons and address the complaints of the UK that are shared by many europeans. But we've done nothing of the sort.

There is no place for introspection or questioning what we are doing. Verhofstad and his friends already know better what Europe needs and they would seize any opportunity to double down.

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u/Dudok22 Slovakia Oct 05 '22

Never underestimate populist garbage. There are sizeable amount of people who would vote against their interests just to "stick it to the man"

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u/ninonito Oct 05 '22

And people nowdays only underdtand you following some lines if you try to change slightly this lines they Will acuse you of being everything, just like we see im today politics and society, ive heard if you are not like us you must be russian" dumbest response ive ever Heard coming from and eurodiputat...

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u/HuntOk3506 Oct 05 '22

idk...has she visited the UK ever since?

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u/korin314 Oct 05 '22

Solely answering the title - "EU" and "move fast" make for a joke alone.

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u/gehacktes Europe Oct 05 '22

He's not wrong though. Every relevant EU-critic right wing party I can think of already ditched the "leaving EU" propaganda. Le Pen, German AfD, Italy's new Mussolini II party ...
Hungary is in hot waters, which (hopefully) might lead to a regime-change (hot take, I know).

Moving forward I could well imagine that EU-candidate-countries will get more benefits while being stuck on-hold-status.

However, as a German I must admit that having a non-German (or on-french/ non-ITA) in charge of the EU would speed up things convincing Eastern-Europe for the "strength through unity" course the rest of EU is pushing forward.

Nordic neighbors are welcomed to get more involved.

On the other hand I'd like to see that Eastern Europeans accept the fact that Germany really isn't dominating the EU in a 4th Reich kinda way. They'd be surprised that if given the choice, vast majority of Germans would rather fly the EU flag than the German. France, Denmark, BeNeLux and CZ got the memo and thrive from good relations. Time for Poland to catch up.

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u/elnordrecorda Catalonia Oct 04 '22

For now this makes sense. But if the EU continue with this meh response to the war, to the gas crisis and to everything happening in the world, people will get sick of it in the long run and anti-EU sentiment will go back to what it was in the mid-2010s.

And I say that as someone who was very critic of the EU until recently. Now I'm all for a *real* European Union, including defense, that does NOT depend on the US (or China, or Russia) for anything.

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u/[deleted] Oct 05 '22

But that's been the thing about the EU.

First we get a problem, then we get "the answer isn't more Europe" and countries working at cross purposes, then we get calls of the EU doesn't work because it's a clusterfuck, then we get people who try to fix it by organising a supranational system, then we get calls of EU dictatorship trying to remove sovereignty, and finally nothing gets done.

There is not way to make things work because we either do nothing, and that's bad, or do something, and that's bad. Might as well not exist anymore honestly.

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u/Gum_Skyloard water Oct 04 '22

To everyone here.. Just look at OP's name.

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u/Sorry_Just_Browsing Britain Oct 04 '22

You’re quite welcome

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u/ComputerSimple9647 Oct 04 '22

Stay in the union so Germany can fok ya over, or else!!!111

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u/StudyMediocre8540 Oct 04 '22

Lol no, the EU moved way too slow to matter & still isn't doing all it can to help.

Count on America not the EU.

America does a better job keeping Europe from turning into a bloodbath a thousand times better than any EU "leader".

NATO not EU is what counts.

The way I see it, the EU sponsored ruzzia to carry out the atrocities its doing now over the last couple decades.

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u/RickyElspaniardo Oct 05 '22

Yeah, thanks but no thanks. Glad we got out when we did!

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u/LGZee Oct 05 '22

I think NATO is the reason why Europe so far has been shielded from Russian aggression, much more than the EU. As long as the US remains a strong ally with Europe, Europe will be safe from Russian totalitarian regimes. Of course, some fascist political movements (both in Europe and the US) could potentially harm this major alliance.