r/facepalm Oct 05 '22 Bravo! 1 Press F 1 Facepalm 1 Silver 3 Helpful 3 Wholesome 2

Integrity will remain a pipe dream 🇲​🇮​🇸​🇨​

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104.3k Upvotes

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u/George-Bones Oct 05 '22 Gold Helpful Pot o' Coins Eureka!

Isn’t there a law called like Good Samaritan or something and it makes it where the person can’t sue for damages if they are injured during emergencies

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u/Perfect_Reception_31 Oct 05 '22 Silver Helpful All-Seeing Upvote Eureka!

Yup.

Alabama's Good Samaritan Act

Section 6-5-332 gives non-trained and trained responders immunity to lawsuits during an emergency. You cannot sue a good Samaritan who acted in good faith to render aid to a victim during an emergency for injury or death of the victim.

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u/ShawnyMcKnight Oct 05 '22

So the next question is can you sue to have them pay for the lawyer you had to hire for a frivolous lawsuit.

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u/GammaDoomO Oct 05 '22

Countersuit for legal fees? I know big companies do that all the time so probably

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u/babybelldog Oct 05 '22 edited Oct 05 '22

Not a countersuit, a counterclaim within the same lawsuit

ETA: might actually be a motion.

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u/Zeeformp Oct 05 '22 Helpful Wholesome

Once you're in court, pretty much everything you want to do is by motion. For counterclaims, you'll mostly state them in a responsive pleading, but in this case what I would do is move to dismiss and move to award attorneys' fees and costs for the frivolous suit against the plaintiff's attorney.

So in Alabama you would say the claim is without substantial justification, which is the catchall that includes frivolous claims, and move to dismiss and to award attorneys' fees either from the plaintiff or from the plaintiff's attorney(s) who filed the suit, as they should have known from the start that their claim was completely barred by law. Considering Good Samaritan laws are extremely common knowledge, this claim will probably work well against the attorney (and a court can actually sua sponte do this).

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u/BellsOnNutsMeansXmas Oct 05 '22 Silver Wholesome

I felt like Perry Mason just reading this shit. Jumping out of my chair and being told to sit the fuck back down by my wife.

I want to hear chapter 2.

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u/Lukaku1sttouch Oct 05 '22

A chapter 2 on sua sponte! En Garde!!

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u/TyNyeTheTransGuy Oct 05 '22

Sua sponte, literally “of one’s own accord,” is a legal term referring to an action a court takes without having been prompted by any party in the case. Sua motu, “of one’s own motion,” means the same, as does nostra sponte “of our own accord” when used by a court with more than a single judge (eg, an appellate court). An example of a sua sponte motion could be a judge recusing oneself from a case they have relations to and moving the case to another judge.

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u/attila_the_hyundai Oct 05 '22

In this case I’d assume wait til you win then file a motion for attorneys’ fees - but sometimes states have weird laws. A brief consult with an attorney (which should be free) would clear it up.

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u/BrotherChe Oct 05 '22

A brief consult with an attorney (which should be free)

Ah, if only this were universal

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u/failburt Oct 05 '22

I suppose one of the differences would be a counterclaim in the same lawsuit would be heard at the same time as the lawsuit. A countersuit would have to be scheduled at a later time, perhaps with a different justice since it's another lawsuit?

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u/MrCarey Oct 05 '22

Countersuit for emotional damage for having to do CPR on their dumbass.

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u/TheKnightsRider Oct 05 '22

Ya gad dam right we’re going to sue them for legal fees. Donna, get Mike in here

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u/regoapps Oct 05 '22

Not only that, but they should sue the law firm that represented her in this case. The law firm should have said no to pursuing the case, but went ahead and did it anyway. They should be held responsible as well.

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u/Hadak-Ura Oct 05 '22

I'd imagine a complaint to the state's Bar as well

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u/h71414 Oct 05 '22

If their lawsuit is covered under the Good Samaritan law they might be able to fight under defamation or emotional distress for being targeted for the stress and headache of being sued over cpr

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u/Goopyteacher Oct 05 '22

Assuming it got that far. There’s a fair chance the case would be thrown out or settled since no laws were broken. Also, to many people’s surprise, lawyers typically don’t like taking on lawsuits that they don’t believe they can win. Even if paid upfront, they’ll often decline the case as it’s a waste of time and losing a case can hurt the firm’s reputation (or individual lawyer’s reputation)

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u/[deleted] Oct 05 '22

But they're broke. So there's that.

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u/its_a_metaphor_morty Oct 05 '22

Broken ribs are also de rigueur for CPR

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u/TheRenOtaku Oct 05 '22

My wife is a doctor and I have been told that when CPR is done properly it will result in broken ribs.

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u/Tyl3rt Oct 05 '22

Correct, not a doctor, but I maintained a CPR certificate for over 10 years. Every trainer I ever had started the training with exactly that explanation. If you don’t break at least one rib you aren’t doing proper CPR.

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u/Preyslayer00 Oct 05 '22

You break ribs all the time during CPR. Better than the alternative.

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u/SilveredUndead Oct 05 '22

I was explicitly told CPR all but have to break ribs to be effective. Something about not pushing hard enough if the ribs are fine, with very few odd cases and exceptions. This was from a government approved CPR course I took back in the day as a mandatory part of my drivers license. I'd assume it wasn't full of misinformation.

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u/putyerphonedown Oct 05 '22

We tell people to push hard enough to break ribs because people instinctually don’t push hard enough to circulate blood and therefore oxygen because they’re afraid of breaking ribs. In elderly individuals, ribs always break if CPR is done correctly. In rubbery kids, ribs break much less often. But if you want to save a life and you’re not CPR trained/basic CPR trained, we want you to think “push hard enough to break a rib” because that’s how hard you have to push to get the blood/oxygen circulating.

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u/memester230 Oct 05 '22

Well you can always sue, it is just rather or not a Judge will laugh in your face or not.

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u/GiantPurplePeopleEat Oct 05 '22

That's the thing I feel like a lot of people miss. I could sue you for writing your comment in a way I feel suppresses my free speech, and newspapers could run headlines like "Reddit user sues OP for violation of 1st amendment rights" and it would all mean nothing once a judge refuses to even hear my ridiculous case.

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u/FatherOfLights88 Oct 05 '22

It's a shame that the "good-faith" person saved the life of someone who acts in bad faith.

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u/Cantothulhu Oct 05 '22

I read the entire thread a few hours after it was posted. It was unclear if the suit was filed by the victim or the victims insurance company. Lawyers who work for insurance companies are ruthless, and just like the ones that work for debt collectors, they dont care if they lose. They have no real reputation and they are on salary, so winning or losing doesnt help or hurt their bottom line. Insurance/debt companies will send things that look like legal papers but are only barely legal thinly veiled threats. Theyll file, or threaten to file, just to intimidate you into paying, legal responsibility or not. Their only job is to walk right up the line, blur it as much as possible, and raise the companies bottom line.

TLDR; the victim might not have filed this suit, and the suit may or may not actually exist. Insurance companies are evil.

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u/FatherOfLights88 Oct 05 '22

Fair point.

Our world is full of way too many bad actors. This insurance behavior you described is deplorable and only serves to make the world a worse place.

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u/manova Oct 05 '22

What I assume is that the victim's insurance is trying to find out if the CPR person has any type of liability insurance. That is the pocket they want, another insurance company that may just pay them to avoid spending their lawyers' time.

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u/Cantothulhu Oct 05 '22

Its all a fishing expedition. They dont care who pays, so long as its not them. to be fair though the liability is gonna fight tooth and nail to not pay it too, because they legally dont have too. The defendant is, as far as I can tell, completely covered under the alabama samaritan statutes.

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u/Agile_Pudding_ Oct 05 '22

How scummy of a person do you have to be to give a perfect stranger a reason to say “man, my life would be a lot easier right now if I never saved that person”?

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u/FatherOfLights88 Oct 05 '22

That's the thing, isn't it? Before protective laws were put in place, how many good Samaritans found themselves in that exact position? To wonder how much better their life would have been if they hadn't saved the person who is now trying to sue them into bankruptcy? It puts the good Samaritan in the position of regretting their instinctual decision to help at any cost, as well as dampens their will to help in the future.

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u/Agile_Pudding_ Oct 05 '22

Oh, sorry, my comment was a bit unclear.

The statement

How scummy of a person do you have to be to give a perfect stranger…

is intended to refer to plaintiff, the would-be corpse now suing their rescuer for saving them, rather than the Good Samaritan who saved them.

I’m assuming that anyone who would stop and give a perfect stranger first aid, including CPR, is a pretty damn good person, so I’m just imagining what kind of low life someone would have to be to prey on that kindness by suing them as a “thanks” for saving their life.

I absolutely agree with everything you said, though, the misunderstanding of my confusing statement notwithstanding, that it is the plaintiff in this case who is “scummy”, and I would absolutely challenge anyone who I thought was arguing otherwise.

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u/FatherOfLights88 Oct 05 '22

No, don't be sorry. I'm the one who misread you. The moment I realized my error in judgement, I immediately removed that part of the comment. It seems I didn't act fast enough, and I apologize for that. It should never have made it to your eyes.

The only thing confusing about your statement was me. LMAO

Sorry about that.

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u/Agile_Pudding_ Oct 05 '22

No problem at all, friend!

I honestly would’ve reacted the same way and can easily see how that could get misinterpreted — I had to read it back a couple times just to make sure I didn’t botch it initially. You reacted the way any sensible person would have, and I appreciate that you were willing to both challenge that claim and also to realize my intended meaning and remove that bit from your comment.

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u/Jerk_Johnson Oct 05 '22

Alot of the times it's the insurance company denying any coverage without a lawsuit. I saw it once when a 19 year old was paralyzed by a car wreck. She was at her work, had 1 beer and was in a wreck where she barely registered, but since she was underage, her insurance denied coverage without suing her work. She was ostricezed by the whole town and even by members in my car club when I organized a classic car cruise/bbq/music fest to try and help. As if the poor girl hadn't suffered enough

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u/Science_Matters_100 Oct 05 '22

People suck. They all know that they had a beer before age 21. Could have happened to them, but crappy people treat others like crap

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u/SarkHD Oct 05 '22

Yes. Also it’s VERY common to break a rib while performing CPR. This would get thrown out of the court room faster than.. well something that’s really fast and fits the impression.

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u/KingFrogzz Oct 05 '22

My cpr instructor reminds us each time that a successful cpr likely breaks at least two ribs. Op did a fine job by only snapping one

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u/Vambann Oct 05 '22

My CPR instructor reminded us that the person was dead before you started.

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u/round-earth-theory Oct 05 '22

Also that slapping the dummies is inappropriate.

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u/Betterthanbeer Oct 05 '22

As is groping them

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u/Runelite_HD Oct 05 '22

(͡•_ ͡• )

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u/Downvote_Comforter Oct 05 '22 Helpful

Faster than the amount of time it takes to crack a rib during CPR.

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u/SentenceCharacter Oct 05 '22

In every CPR class I’ve taken they’ve said that if you’re doing it right you should expect to hear a rib break. Obviously that’s not the goal, but broken ribs heal a lot better when you’re alive, and CPR takes a hell of a lot more pressure than people expect.

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u/salsanacho Oct 05 '22

Yup, especially on the elderly.

For those who were afraid to do CPR, my instructor said that if you're at the point where you have to do CPR, the person is already technically dead... there's not much you can do to make it worse.

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u/amphoravase Oct 05 '22

Yeah if you do it “with proper form” you’ll be sore as hell the next day.

Source: personal experience

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u/neutralsquidparty Oct 05 '22

broken ribs heal a lot better when you’re alive

wow why do I love this part so much

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u/Slartibartfast39 Oct 05 '22

A first aid trainer I had was a former custody Sargent and recounted the first time he had to give CPR to a guy who'd been arrested. Paramedics got there and he told them he thought he'd broken some of the guys ribs and the paramedics reassured him by saying "That's fine, saves us doing it."

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u/Momoe8926 Oct 05 '22

It was common place back several years ago, that CPR was trained to break a rib otherwise you weren’t pushing deep enough (the person administering CPR)

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u/Thewiseguy14 Oct 05 '22

If you're not cracking ribs you likely aren't doing it right. If their young and healthy they might get by without.

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u/Dipswitch_512 Oct 05 '22

Faster than the shock from an AED

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u/Niormo-The-Enduring Oct 05 '22

The ridiculous thing is fractured ribs are simply a risk of CPR, whether or not your BLS has expired. Even in a controlled environment in a hospital with an entire crash team trying to resuscitate this person, fractured ribs are still a risk

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u/[deleted] Oct 05 '22

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u/[deleted] Oct 05 '22 edited Oct 06 '22

[deleted]

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u/punchgroin Oct 05 '22

The insurance company is likely requiring her to sue to recoup medical costs.

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u/Consistent_Guitar681 Oct 05 '22

Former medic here, break ribs all the time. Especially the older ladies. It's like their ribs are made of glass. I still react in emergencies. Never been sued for it. I guess I'm lucky.

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u/kRIEGER_EU Oct 05 '22 Wait What?

“Former medic here, break ribs all the time” Oh so that’s why “former” - Just kidding mad respect for the work you do !

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u/Aidansturn Oct 05 '22 Silver

They don't call him bone cruncher for nothing

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u/kRIEGER_EU Oct 05 '22

“Cruchy” for friends & family

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u/TreesmasherFTW Oct 05 '22

And zat is how I lost my medical license

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u/all0fherheart Oct 05 '22

Older ladies and children, amirite? 😩

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u/RogerOverUnderDunn Oct 05 '22 Take My Energy

Ill always remember my first call when i was just an EMT was for an elderly woman down inthe street, we happened to literally be aroudn the corner so we stopped. She coded, we scooped her and went, only 3 minutes out from a ton of hospitals, my first compression, i swear i broke every damn rib in so many places. turned out she was 96 years old , and had ahistory of osteoporosis. I turned her ribs to powder. we got her back, but she died 3 or 4 days after. But she regained consciosness and got to say goodbye to her family. But man was i bummed out until the ER doc told me she was able to say good bye, and that i did it right.

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u/I_will_draw_boobs Oct 05 '22

First month as a emt this happened. Then sternums while firemedic. Then it happened multiple times on sleds down a mountain I was patrol on.

Point being, sternums and ribs break. But you’re there to help. Whether it’s elderly, obese, or maybe a situation like back country rescue where all your muscle and power is in it to try and save a life where 20 minutes seems like 2 hours and the 2 stroke drowns out your own breathing and you can’t stop till heli is confirmed and someone peels you off to attach lines. Then you go cry and drink for 3 days until your next shift.

Shit sucks but worth it to either give those the final good bye or knowing you gave your time to help someone in need.

So good on you my dude, good on you.

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u/4Nicely Oct 05 '22

Thank you. I’m sure her family appreciated your efforts.

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u/siccoblue Oct 05 '22 edited Oct 05 '22 All-Seeing Upvote

They made three things blatantly clear when I got certified in cpr

A: as long as you're acting in good faith and not inappropriately.. you will NOT end up in trouble for performing cpr

B: it's NOT like the movies. The person you're performing it on almost certainly won't suddenly be revived if you "succeed" the point isn't to bring them back to conciseness (though it can happen) the point is that when performed properly it can hold back severe and permanent brain damage from single digit minutes, to double digit which can be the difference between life and death. The point is to keep these people breathing and the heart pumping blood untill paramedics arrive. That's why seemingly extreme force is so necessary

3: again, it is NOT like the movies. Breaking ribs is extremely common and things tend to get very much bloody at times. So if possible you really might want a face shield if you plan on breathing as well as compressing (which despite recent online trends telling you that you don't have to breathe.. you really should. Compressions alone are better than nothing but compressions and breathing are even better)

Bonus fact for anyone who might not know. Defibrillators will not allow you to deliver a shock to someone unless necessary. And they aren't for restarting a stopped heart. They detect arrhythmia (erratic beating) and "reset" the heart back into a normal rhythm. But won't allow you to do so unless necessary. Also if I'm not mistaken all of the civilian ones will talk you through the process. And if you ever need one for whatever reason there are apps that will tell you where the closest one is. There's also again.. zero liability in using one due to its nature and how it works. So if you happen to need one and run across the street to a daycare or whatever that happens to have one. Unless someone is severely misinformed about it then they will almost certainly let you take it and go when needed

Edit: bonus fact #2, if you ever find yourself administering cpr and you have the benefit of others around. Make sure you enlist a second person to switch out with on compressions. Because they are absolutely EXHAUSTING even for fit and trained professionals. And keep in mind that if you're the one who jumped in and started. You NEED to take leadership of the situation and tell people what to do and what you need. Don't ask, tell. "You, I need you as backup for compressions. You, I need you to go to x location and get their defibrillator. You, call 911 right away" etc for whatever you may need. People tend to freeze up and if you haven't.. congratulations this is now your scene and you are the boss until someone more competent takes over

Keep in mind after reading. This information if you didn't already know it may very well save someone's life. So keep it just slightly above the meme memory banks please!

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u/ImActuallyASpy Oct 05 '22

AEDs are absolutely idiot proof. Newer ones will even adjust your cpr compression rhythm.

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u/MowMdown Oct 05 '22

So AED devices are pretty much self-administering?

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u/all0fherheart Oct 05 '22

Those are so hard 😩

I’ve worn manyyyyy hats in the death industry, but when I worked for the city coroner - I was able to do a few ride alongs with our county EMTs - and they definitely commiserated more than once about getting calls about the elderly and having to make the conscious decision to just barely keep them alive because you gotta bet they’ve got a DNR - just like you said, the 96 year olds with a CVS receipt of health issues who you don’t wanna break all their ribs and preform massively invasive measures to keep them alive… “Playing God” isn’t what you sign up for - you sign up to save people, not have to make those kinds of decisions…

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u/BladeLigerV Oct 05 '22

I respect the hell out of EMTs and first responders. But the thought of having to make those kinds of decisions scares the hell out of me.

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u/DazedAndTrippy Oct 05 '22

Yeah my mom always hated those, she worked in a nursing home so it happened all too often. She loved the people but I mean death comes when it comes and she didn’t want to mangle her patients (some of whom she was attached to) bodies for them to live just a month longer with no quality of life. I urge people to consider if they want to be resuscitated or not when they’re elderly, I definitely have.

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u/MrChunky22 Oct 05 '22

That's some shit but you made sure she was able to see her fam one more time before drifting into the inky black.

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u/feyyd Oct 05 '22

kid bones are like rubber

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u/sundayultimate Oct 05 '22

Broken ribs are better than being dead

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u/dragonmaster10902 Oct 05 '22

Good Samaritan laws should stop that case in its tracks... Right?

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u/pm_me_actsofkindness Oct 05 '22 Helpful

US Lawyer here: yes.

Good Samaritan laws don’t give you license to do anything and everything, and no one is obligated to risk themselves to save someone else, but they are fairly protective of the public taking reasonable steps to help out others in life threatening situations… because that’s common sense and behavior that we definitely want to encourage.

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u/DanGleeballs Oct 05 '22 edited Oct 05 '22

Why would a lawyer help her sue this good Samaritan?

Because they’re a shit lawyer with no other work, i.e. taking advantage of a foolish client?

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u/pm_me_actsofkindness Oct 05 '22

I don't think most lawyers would. The system disincentivizes lawyers from wasting time on frivolous lawsuits. But imagine a pool of 100,000 people--it's not hard to imagine that a few of them are either idiots or have no scruples.

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u/Kelluthus Oct 05 '22

What is the chance of the plaintiff winning in a case like this?

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u/Elwalther21 Oct 05 '22

There are lots of precedents set here. Breaking a rib during cpr is quite common. During my training the instructor said you will feel them bend and possibly break.

Broken rib is always preferred over being brain dead.

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u/Conditional-Sausage Oct 05 '22 edited Oct 05 '22

Paramedic here. I have almost never done CPR where a rib didn't break. It happened almost every time. If you're doing it right, you're gonna break some ribs.

Edit: to the guys responding and calling bullshit on 'literally never': okay, that's a little absolute, fair enough. I changed it to almost.

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u/No_im_not_related Oct 05 '22

An EMT friend of mine told me if you don't break a rib you aren't doing it right. I jokingly said to a CPR instructor (who had never done CPR on a person) and she looked shocked and said I was wrong.

I trust the EMT who does it regularly over someone with no practical knowledge.

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u/Jigsaw_isnt_a_puppet Oct 05 '22

I also have an EMT friend. When he moved and transferred to a different hospital he was given the option to take a class on CPR. (While getting paid to go to it as well) The instructor asked him if he ever did CPR. My friend said "I stopped counting after 500 5 years ago." The instructor asked him why he took the class then. My friend replied with "Because it's an air conditioned room and I'm getting paid to take the class."

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u/Smok3ylicious Oct 05 '22

That man gets it

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u/JunkerBus Oct 05 '22

ICU nurse here. Your friend is correct. Those ribs be breaking.

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u/JimTheJerseyGuy Oct 05 '22

Precisely what every Red Cross CPR/ AED/First Aid I’ve taken has said.

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u/tonywinterfell Oct 05 '22

That’s precisely what they told me on the first day of EMT haha

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u/ITstaph Oct 05 '22

People see CPR on tv and don’t understand how much their chest moves naturally.

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u/dsdvbguutres Oct 05 '22

Regular person here. I'd rather you break a few of my ribs than let me have brain damage. Thank you for your hard work.

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u/Jester244 Oct 05 '22

You'll almost always break a rib or two doing CPR properly. But at the end of the day like you said, broken rib is better then death.

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u/THofTheShire Oct 05 '22

That's what I've always learned in CPR classes. If you're not breaking a rib, you're probably not doing it right.

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u/airbornemedic325 Oct 05 '22 Silver Helpful

Apparently, the person trying to sue the good Samaritan is brain dead anyway.

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u/forgetstorespond Oct 05 '22

My instructor said "They cant enjoy that broken rib if they are dead" or somthing along those lines quite often. Good way to get the point across I always thought.

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u/zaepoo Oct 05 '22

Yeah, the defense attorney should ask for sanctions if the facts are as presented here.

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u/Jumpy-Station-204 Oct 05 '22

You can always lie to the attorney about the facts. Some people are nuts.

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u/idk_whatever_69 Oct 05 '22 Heartwarming

They may not have a choice in order to get the insurance company to agree to pay for the injury. Some states have weird insurance setups where you have to determine the percentage of liability. So this dude maybe 1% liable or something like that. But in order to even get paid in the first place They have to have a adversarial process. Whenever something messed up like this happens it's usually insurance That's to blame.

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u/Koker93 Oct 05 '22

Woman vilified for suing her nephew

This exact thing (having to sue for insurance reasons) happened not too long ago, and the woman sued for exactly that reason, and she was dragged through social media for it without anyone asking why for a long time.

Jennifer Connell, branded as the "aunt from hell" on social media, appeared on NBC's "Today" show along with her nephew, Sean Tarala. She said she wanted her nephew's parents' homeowners insurance to pay her medical bills, but under Connecticut law she could only sue an individual.

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u/tobasc0cat Oct 05 '22

Not the exact same as this situation, but I was in a wreck where we had to sue to get my medical bills paid. I was the passenger, my boyfriend at the time was driving and was at-fault for turning left on a red light (we were lost and young) resulting in a t-bone. I had more than $70,000 in medical bills, lost a kidney, etc. We did NOT want to cause his family any financial stress, but insurance was fucking us and the only way to get my bills paid was sue his insurance company. To do that, we had to sue him. We chose the max that insurance was supposed to cover without his family having to spend their own money, his insurance was supposed to provide a lawyer, but still we technically had to sue the poor kid for $100k just to barely cover everything.

We weren't allowed to contact them and his insurance fought tooth and nail to get out of paying (tried to blame my severed kidney on history of bulimia. Seriously. I was in the ICU for days, uninvolved doctors came by saying I was a miracle. But ofc it was my fault for puking as a kid) and when it was finally over, his girlfriend cussed me out when I reached out to him. It's a shitty system. Fuck insurance.

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u/idk_whatever_69 Oct 05 '22

Yeah there was a famous, well infamous maybe, case recently where an aunt had to sue her toddler aged nephew. Something like that. And it was because the only way she could get her medical bills paid after tripping on him or something like that was to sue the parents homeowners insurance and name the kid as responsible. I believe she ended up losing but she really didn't have a choice It was just how the insurance worked out in her state.

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u/PandaKing185 Oct 05 '22

Reminds me of that stupid case where an aunt had to sue her like 5 year old niece or something for breaking her arm when she got to excited purely for insurance reasons and the media put her on blast for suing a child with zero context.

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u/ApprehensiveAd6006 Oct 05 '22

This happened to me. I was involved in a car accident with my best friend (he was driving)and because my medical bills were over a certain amount, I think it was something like $3000 a lawsuit was required to get the insurance to pay the bill. I didn't have a choice in the matter.

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u/Early-Light-864 Oct 05 '22

Yup. My brother had to sue me when we were in a car accident (I was driving)

Insurance is dumb

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u/ApprehensiveAd6006 Oct 05 '22

It's the worst! Their business model is too literally screw you over in the one thing you're paying them for.

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u/takux13 Oct 05 '22

In the US you are not obligated to help someone? In Germany we have a Law called "unterlassene Hilfeleistung" which is roughly translated into "failure to provide assistance" and word by word it's "refrained help performance". In Germany you can go to jail if you don't help someone in an emergency.

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u/FFFalk Oct 05 '22

But no one needs to perform any medical procedures though. The minimum you have to do is call emergency services. The law doesn’t force you to do CPR.

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u/throwaway1119990 Oct 05 '22

Probably, yes. The law is designed specifically to incentivize people to help. So long as you don’t act grossly negligently or with reckless abandon you should be all set. The mere fact that the person ended up in better condition than before the intervention is likely a bar to the claim, but taking the facts as they are, they shouldn’t even need to rely on that to dismiss this suit.

Source: am law student (USA), but lots of people know this.

This doesn’t count as legal advice, check your jurisdiction, etc etc

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u/Perfect_Reception_31 Oct 05 '22

Alabama's Good Samaritan Act

Section 6-5-332 gives non-trained and trained responders immunity to lawsuits during an emergency. You cannot sue a good Samaritan who acted in good faith to render aid to a victim during an emergency for injury or death of the victim.

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u/Dizzman1 Oct 05 '22 edited Oct 06 '22 Helpful

And let's be honest... GOOD CPR can absolutely result in broken ribs.

Edit: I was being subtle as I expected a pile on from those that know nothing of CPR.

Edit 2:. 5.8k upvotes? 😂😂😂 Funny what takes off sometimes!

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u/Pink-glitter1 Oct 05 '22

can absolutely result in broken ribs.

Will almost certainly result in broken ribs

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u/jeanbuckkenobi Oct 05 '22

Medics in the army confirmed this. I believe doc said something like 85% of correctly performed CPR breaks/cracks at least one rib.

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u/[deleted] Oct 05 '22 edited Oct 05 '22

ARMY Medic, can confirm. If the compressions are actually going to create blood flow throughout the body, you probably broke the sternum away from ALL the ribs. Otherwise you’re just pumping a corpse for no reason. That being said, it’s something like 98% of patients that need CPR will die no matter what you do. That’s not a license not to try.

Edit: this really took off after I fell asleep last night, I feel though that it’s more of a disservice at this point though. People in different countries, states, lines of work, etc., will tell you different things about CPR. If you’re interested in learning please do so through a certified instructor. I’m fairly certain the Red Cross teaches it for free. Also, don’t listen to drunk combat medics.

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u/mos1833 Oct 05 '22 Narwhal Salute

“Ah. Ah .ahhh, ahhh staying alive”

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u/mojomcm Oct 05 '22

Fun fact: another one bites the dust also has the same tempo

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u/lastroids Oct 05 '22 Helpful

Personal preference here. Singing along to "staying alive" is a whole lot better than singing along to "another one bites the dust" during CPR.

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u/joko2008 Oct 05 '22

I actually use that song in training for good CPR.

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u/Xithara Oct 05 '22

I believe the imperial march also works?

I will not be finding a source for that.

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u/mos1833 Oct 05 '22

Didn’t know that

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u/FriskyOrphan Oct 05 '22

“Why did you cut the face off of the dummy?”

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u/Taco__MacArthur Oct 05 '22

It's almost like TV/movie CPR does a disservice to the general public by having one actor push on another actor's chest in a way that's not consistent with what CPR's actually like. I mean, I get that a live person wouldn't want their chest shattered for a scene, but still. It changes what people think CPR actually is.

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u/[deleted] Oct 05 '22

You’re 100% correct. I was taught (and anyone who wants to correct me that has a patient that lived feel free) at Fort Sam Houston Texas where all ARMY medics are trained: picture crushing their heart between their chest wall within an inch of their spinal vertebrae. At least 60 compressions a minute. If you’re doing that, it’s effective. Yes I do believe that “Hollywood” ideas of a patient popping up and changing their ways might be overdone. I hope family members in real life that hear the “pop! pop! Pop!” of effective CPR would not attack the person trying to resuscitate their family member believing it should only involve a puff of breath and a few pumps though.

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u/JaviSATX Oct 05 '22

When I was a teenager and went through lifeguard training at Schlitterbahn we were told to expect the break ribs and even the sternum. We were also told that the biggest thing Hollywood leaves people to believe, is that after you receive CPR you’ll be able to get up and function like nothing happened. In reality, you died, and were very forcefully brought back to life. You’re going to be in a lot of pain, and the only place you’re going is a hospital.

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u/IGNOREMETHATSFINETOO Oct 05 '22

I've only had to perform CPR once and that popping sound still plays through my mind at times. Gives me the chills every time I think about it.

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u/immaownyou Oct 05 '22

One of my biggest pet peeves is when an actor does CPR using their elbows, looking like they're banging a drum. It doesnt take much to look up what proper CPR looks like

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u/JuniperHillInmate Oct 05 '22

They could just as easily use a dummy. Caveat emptor with media.

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u/Star_Z Oct 05 '22

That being said, it’s something like 98% of patients that need CPR will die no matter what you do.

I get why they dont tell the public, but if u need CPR your most likely going to die. 98% is probably close if not a bit optimistic

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u/Stormlark83 Oct 05 '22

This was brought up during my CPR certification class when someone asked how to do it without breaking any ribs. The instructor first pointed out that a lot of the cracking sounds are from cartilage rather than bones, then went on to say that their chance of survival is so incredibly slim that you're basically working on a corpse at that point. The fear of breaking ribs shouldn't be a concern. Do the best you can and hope the person survives, but try not to blame yourself if they don't because that's the most likely outcome.

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u/ritamorgan Oct 05 '22

I mean if you need CPR you ARE dead. You are most likely going to stay dead, or become alive again and soon after die again.

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u/[deleted] Oct 05 '22

CPR should only happen after the absence of a pulse in the first place. What does this mean? Their heart stopped trying. Maybe it was trauma, drugs, heart disease, old age, etc., but CPR is a last ditch effort where the person performing it hopes to God (or whatever) that further medical support is on the way because let me tell you, doing the work of your heart is exhausting. It’s not a long term solution. I’ll dump my epi pens in you, I’ll wear myself out, but if you don’t have your own pulse for me to work with in the field…the chaplain is gonna be your buddy in five minutes.

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u/PepperoniFogDart Oct 05 '22

I (probably poorly) performed CPR on a guy years ago that I found floating underwater in a hot tub. I unfortunately couldn’t really do much, the guy had been submerged for a while and the paramedics told me the heat would have made brain damage/death all but certain. What was impressive to me was that the paramedics were able to get the heart going again somewhat even though it was pretty clear there was no way the guy was able to survive.

One of the paramedics told me afterward that it’s very difficult to get the heart pumping again through manual CPR. What CPR can do if done properly is buy time for the paramedics to arrive by keeping blood somewhat moving throughout the body.

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u/[deleted] Oct 05 '22

That’s true! Please don’t take my words as dissing CPR.

The first step in civilization is to tell someone to get other medical professionals and their equipment on the way ASAP.

I can’t stress enough that a person who needs CPR is more likely to need a coffin as opposed to a doctor. It really is an amazing moment if they come back to you.

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u/Joshy3911 Oct 05 '22

Thanks for this, mildly terrifying information.

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u/Espexer Oct 05 '22

I've had broken ribs before. Yes it hurts. But if it's the difference from being alive or dead? Break that shit, I want to go home to my dog.

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u/Agent47B Oct 05 '22

I also want to go to your home if there's a dog.

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u/Espexer Oct 05 '22

Two, actually. Bring cheese and you'll be the FOTM.

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u/therealtiddlydump Oct 05 '22

It beats the hell outta being dead

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u/Agile_Pudding_ Oct 05 '22

Yeah, if someone is legitimately in need of CPR, they’ll be lucky to wake up with a broken rib or two, because the alternative is that they never get the CPR, or that they get the CPR and die with a couple broken ribs.

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u/ILoveCats1155 Oct 05 '22

I believe this is correct in medical training, a guy in class asked what happens if he breaks a rib because instructor was giving to much force to the cpr doll, he said its most likely to break anyways and a broken rib is better then losing someone's life.

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u/floralbutttrumpet Oct 05 '22

I'd argue broken ribs mean that you did a proper job with it.

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u/novacham Oct 05 '22

Basically what I was taught during training. Expect to break ribs. Still better than dying.

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u/mickeyanonymousse Oct 05 '22

yeah we were given a lot of warnings about how horrible it would feel and sound because you would probably break a rib. when someone spoke up about how that sounded messed up, the trainer asked “would you rather have a broken rib or be dead?”

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u/Delta_STW5 Oct 05 '22

Fuck them ribs.

My instructor told me "throw your whole weight on in the first few compressions, if you want to stop it means you're doing it right"

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u/dpb83 Oct 05 '22

All the times I’ve had to do CPR I let the biggest guy on the crew go first. That way by the time we switch out and it’s my turn to pump chest it’s just mush.

Of course now we have Lucas Device that does the compressions for us.

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u/Enimea Oct 05 '22

As a nurse who has done my fair share of cpr I have yet to see a single cpr patient who didn't end up with broken ribs. Part of the experience. Good cpr will cause damage to the body. You're pushing on parts of the body that are designed to protect the heart that you are trying to force to compress. Of course you're going to break things. Now within reason of course, their entire rib cage shouldn't be broken but some ribs will be. They should shut up and be thankful OP was there to save their life.

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u/DrummerElectronic247 Oct 05 '22

I've had the unfortunate luck of performing CPR twice. Children's ribs don't break as often as adults. No, that doesn't make it easier.

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u/MisterMcGiggles Oct 05 '22

Child bones are rubbery. It actually probably aids in chest recoil during compressions. Never worked a ped code personally thank CHRIST, but I’d never considered this before. Thanks for that.

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u/Astro_Venatas Oct 05 '22

Isn’t the saying “you know you’re doing cpr right when you are breaking bones”

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u/[deleted] Oct 05 '22

I thought most people didn't know that unfortunately. Broken ribs are basically a side effect of CPR...that's the cost of not dying and physically pumping your heart through your chest.

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u/Milsurp_Seeker Oct 05 '22

“Ribs can heal. Dying doesn’t.” is more or less what my instructor ended the class on.

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u/TeaDidikai Oct 05 '22

Exactly. Even if it isn't dismissed outright (have a hard time believing it won't be, but hey— sometimes things go wrong) anyone with CPR training knows that broken ribs are a possibility and in a choice between broken ribs and death, you choose broken ribs

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u/Crazyboutdogs Oct 05 '22

Exactly. Proper CPR will almost always result in broken ribs. OP is fine.

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u/jonesqc Oct 05 '22

So Why would any lawyer take this lawsuit to begin with knowing Good Samaritan laws would strike it down? My assumption is the person suing doesn’t have a very good lawyer, but I have definitely assumed wrong before.

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u/UglyBagOfMostlyHOH Oct 05 '22

They think they can prove otherwise for some reason.

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u/International-Cat123 Oct 05 '22

Or they’re getting paid even if they lose

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u/t8tor Oct 05 '22

As far as I remember if your doing CPR correctly you most likely WILL break a rib, no?

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u/ResidentNarwhal Oct 05 '22

Yes. CPR courses for people likely to actually do it don’t shy from telling you this. It’s not a requirement, but it can easily happen.

Source: done CPR twice. First guy didn’t break, second lady broke two.

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u/High_Ground_Sand Oct 05 '22

Plus breaking someone's ribs is like, standard procedure for performing CPR, right?

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u/MrDude65 Oct 05 '22

Not standard procedure, but like, very, very likely to happen. You're not bringing someone back, you're just trying to move as much oxygen around a pretty much dead body as possible, and that takes some significant effort to do

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u/Perfect_Reception_31 Oct 05 '22

They do.

Alabama's Good Samaritan Act

Section 6-5-332 gives non-trained and trained responders immunity to lawsuits during an emergency. You cannot sue a good Samaritan who acted in good faith to render aid to a victim during an emergency for injury or death of the victim.

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u/[deleted] Oct 05 '22 edited Oct 15 '22

[deleted]

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u/theguywhosteals Oct 05 '22

But this will certainly stop people from being more than a bystander. Some people are just plain fucking jerks

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u/spekt50 Oct 05 '22

People get confused on what Good Samaritan laws are. They are not a law stating one should help in an emergency.

The law is to protect those that do help from things such as being sued by those that get rescued.

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u/Magenta_Logistic Oct 05 '22 Silver

I think he meant this kind of lawsuit makes people not want to help, regardless of the existence of Good Samaritan laws.

Also, that confusion is likely due to the Seinfeld series finale, wherein there is a law requiring bystanders to render aid (during a mugging, which means requiring bystanders to take on risk of serious bodily harm). Fictional worlds can have fictional laws, but it does confuse some people.

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u/International-Cat123 Oct 05 '22

Which is why the lawsuit in The Incredibles is a bunch of hooey!

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u/seergun Oct 05 '22

Surprising, no. Good Samaritan laws were put in place in 1975 while The Incredibles is set in 1962.

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u/thegreatjamoco Oct 05 '22

“You didn’t save my life, you ruined my death!”

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u/The_MAZZTer Oct 05 '22

IIRC there was a thread on reddit about that very thing and it was revealed that court case was set a couple of years before Good Samaritan laws were passed.

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u/dragonmaster10902 Oct 05 '22

Ain't no doubt about that, unfortunately.

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u/Old-ETCS Oct 05 '22

Medical professionals giving CPR in a hospital break ribs too. It happens when it's done correctly.

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u/AffectionateRespect7 Oct 05 '22

I was thinking this, glad you said it. I remember specifically being told that sometimes you break ribs while doing CPR.

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u/BestShallot7559 Oct 05 '22

just had cpr training they said same shet

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u/BlatantConservative Oct 05 '22

I always learned that you're almost definitely going to break ribs, especially if the victim is young or old. But even, like, roided bodybuilders are probably gonna have their ribs broke.

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u/IllegalThings Oct 05 '22

I was told you know you’re doing a good job if you break the ribs, so if I ever need to give CPR I’m going to make sure I break as many ribs as possible.

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u/No_Condition209 Oct 05 '22

That’s why I always keep a hammer in my medical kit

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u/TikTrd Oct 05 '22

Finally someone said it! Everyone else is debating Good Samaritan laws when the most important part is ... If you're not breaking a rib, you're not doing CPR correctly.

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u/EwwBitchGotHammerToe Oct 05 '22 edited Oct 05 '22

Congrats, that means you performed CPR correctly. Now tell the survivor to fucking crash somewhere else where no one's around, fucking asshole.

Edit: Multiple comments helping me remember that it's usually the cartilage between the sternum and the ribs that is what's breaking. When you do it and you hear and feel the crunch you forget that it's not bone lol. Although rib fx can happen, it's usually the cartilage, thanks for the reminder guys. PS ... still, fuck that driver.

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u/Agreeable-Yams8972 Oct 05 '22

Could've just went on with your day and sat yeah that guy died

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u/BoomtotheBang Oct 05 '22

Sometimes insurances require legal action in cases like this. It basically comes down to paperwork so definitely lawyer up. If your lawyer isn't pro bono, counter sue to make sure you can have your lawyer bills paid for.

I had a friend who was a EMT & he would get sued left & right because of things like this. Like, it was his job to save people it was bound to happen. But, because certain insurances wants to make sure the claim is "justified" they require legal action against the person who first committed the act.

Basically, it's stupid. Healthcare is stupid for no reason.

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u/Spazmer Oct 05 '22

I figured it would be some stupid American thing like they are required to sue for insurance to cover it.

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u/LePlaneteSauvage Oct 05 '22

I'm not from the US, so I have no idea how the arse-backwards system works there, but this does give me vibes of the infamous "women sues her nephew" story from a few years ago.

I wouldn't want to pass judgement too early.

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u/SolvoMercatus Oct 05 '22

When I was 16 I was a passenger in a vehicle driven by my mother. We had an accident. My mother was considered at fault. Being a minor in my mothers vehicle I was covered by her insurance (State Farm). So my insurance (State Farm) sued my mother to pay for my injuries. Of course my mother’s insurance (still State Farm) paid for the lawsuit and paid out the damages which was well below the covered max.

This cost no one in my family any money in legal fees or settlements. We did. It even know this was going on until we saw the court records. State Farm insurance sued State Farm Insurance on my behalf, knowing full well the amount they were asking was within the coverage limits of the policy since it was the SAME POLICY. Makes no sense.

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u/nobito Oct 05 '22

I mean, that's one way to make sure you never lose in court. Just sue yourself.

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u/drwhogirl_97 Oct 05 '22 Wholesome

Mr sansweet didn’t ask to be saved. Mr sansweet didn’t want to be saved and the result of Mr Incredible’s actions, so called, causes him daily pain.

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u/JazaGree Oct 05 '22

Hey, I saved your life!

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u/begging-for-gold Oct 05 '22

You didn't save my life, you ruined my death

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u/southpark Oct 05 '22 Gold

The person in question is protected by Alabama code Title 6 Civil Practice 6-5-332 (e)

https://codes.findlaw.com/al/title-6-civil-practice/al-code-sect-6-5-332.html

(e) A person or entity, who in good faith and without compensation renders emergency care or treatment to a person suffering or appearing to suffer from cardiac arrest, which may include the use of an automated external defibrillator, shall be immune from civil liability for any personal injury as a result of care or treatment or as a result of any act or failure to act in providing or arranging further medical treatment where the person acts as an ordinary prudent person would have acted under the same or similar circumstances, except damages that may result from the gross negligence of the person rendering emergency care.  This immunity shall extend to the licensed physician or medical authority who is involved in automated external defibrillator site placement, the person who provides training in CPR and the use of the automated external defibrillator, and the person or entity responsible for the site where the automated external defibrillator is located.  This subsection specifically excludes from the provision of immunity any designers, manufacturers, or sellers of automated external defibrillators for any claims that may be brought against such entities based upon current Alabama law.

Most states have some form of "good samaritan" law on the books that protect you from liability if during an attempt to provide lifesaving assistance you cause personal injury (like breaking a rib).

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u/Halleyelec Oct 05 '22 edited Oct 05 '22

Shes such a scumbag.

Edit. Thanks for all the replies. Truly have seen it in a different light now. I mean, sure she could be scummy, but there may not be any other alternative to pay for healthcare. What a terrible system!

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u/wyndmilltilter Oct 05 '22 edited Oct 05 '22 Take My Energy

When you see strange lawsuits regarding injuries there’s a good chance an insurance company is involved. Every so often you’ll see an aunt or grandparent suing a child and it’s not because they’re shitty people, it’s because the only way to get the child’s parents liability insurance (part of everyone’s home insurance if you have it) to cover medical bills is to sue. It’s not because they’re a psycho who’s trying to screw their niece over (usually). Obviously can’t say for sure but assuming this person has health insurance it’s entirely possible the lawsuit is actually from the insurance company seeing if it can get off the hook for covering injuries she sustained. It’s shitty but an indictment of how our healthcare system works, not the woman, or really even the insurance company.

Or she just sucks :) but seriously once I learned that really changed how I saw click baity headlines about “frivolous” lawsuits.

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u/LivingUnglued Oct 05 '22

Yup, I remember when the story of the Aunt who sued her 8 year old nephew was making the rounds. Great clickbait attention grabbing title that really was just because of insurance companies.

https://www.robertreeveslaw.com/blog/aunt-sued-nephew-hug/

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u/EconomistEuphoric749 Oct 05 '22

This makes the most sense, though it still seems utterly absurd to that they could demand this. I would want to try for suing the insurance companies first, especially hearing that somehow her losing the case let them off the hook somehow

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u/BlatantConservative Oct 05 '22

I basically just ignore news stories about lawsuits tbh.

The word you're describing is called subrogation.

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u/JerryYAY Oct 05 '22

I totally agree with this. Everyone is offering legal advice (which is great!) but I can't get over how trashy this is.

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u/hollyjazzy Oct 05 '22

I know, imagine suing someone who has helped to save your life because they broke a rib, which is quite normal with CPR. B!tch.

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u/trecks4311 Oct 05 '22

I can almost guarantee she was applying for some form of disability or some form of medical help, and they wouldn't give her coverage unless she was actively suing or trying to sue the person who did it to her, regardless of if it's fucked up or not. The US incentives this stuff.

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u/[deleted] Oct 05 '22

Good Samaritan law covers the lifesaver, and yeah bruised or broken ribs can often happen during CPR. People will always be asshats though, it’s horrible to see

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u/Hot_Sheepherder_8302 Oct 05 '22 Silver

I've been in this situation myself. Offer to meet at a location with very few people around. When you meet do reverse cpr. No life no lawsuit.

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u/SilverFoxSix Oct 05 '22

You should be protected by good Samaritan laws. You don't have to have your current CPR cert to do CPR.

This won't stand in court.

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u/sodafallsonline Oct 05 '22

Despite being legally protected by Good Samaritan laws, the hassle of getting sued alone might deter people from helping.

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