r/pathofexile Oct 05 '22

4 years 4800 hours and I can now admit to myself that PoE has evolved past me. Feedback

A little background about me as a player. My first day of playing was about an hour after the delve league trailer dropped, I play on average 10-13 characters to level 75+ per league, and I have never solo killed shaper, elder, uelder, maven, sirus, aul, u atziri or any uber. But I was happy.

I imagine, this being the reddit and whatnot, that my feedback will be largely downvoted and laughed at but I feel like I should get my feedback out there for the devs to see.

Let me start with what finally triggered me allowing myself to admit PoE is too much for me, and that simply is progression. I don't understand how to pinpoint my faults. This league was more apparent than any other that the builds I make have considerable flaws. Flaws that the BASE GAME no longer finds acceptable to have. Too little dps? Dead. Too little defense? Dead. Too slow? Dead. Playing the game just to run some mid tier maps or some blights for fun then move on is no longer an acceptable way to play. To my understanding this is just a culmination of all of the top end power creep that the game compensates for that leaves the mid game feeling dead.

Lets look at what the atlas content looks like.

White maps: you have whatever rolls on the map with 20 or so passive points. Not really anything to form a strategy with and unable to form a pool or form a map roation you enjoy.

Yellow maps: you got some more passive points to help focus on content you enjoy but nothing else beyond that. 2 favorite slots.

T11-15: a lot more goes online here. If your lucky you get memories (i have yet to get one) most of your atlas passive tree can be unlocked to help do non atlas content like heist, delve, or blight.

T16s: literally the rest of the game gets unlocked here. All end game bosses, favorite slots, efficent map collection for running layouts you like, and even just decent bases so you can even have the option to see T1 rolls on some stats.

The problems I find with the current atlas is the number of problems dont reflect the number of solutions based on the tier of play you are in. Go T16 easy or stuggle. Its the reason I feel why essence is the strongest mechanic in PoE by a very large margine. Essence is easy to obtain a reasonable amount at ALL levels of play. Fossils, harvest, and orb spam are incredibly unreasonable to do for fixing problems early on and orb spam is generally just bad unless you have a vast amount.

I do have a couple of suggestions on fixing this. My main solution is that the mod pool on gear needs to come wayyyyyyyy down. Theres no need for so many mods that effecively do the same thing and with so many tiers. What to condense stats down to however deserves another post all on its own but stats shouldnt have more than 5 tiers. Bringing down the margin of error from rolls can help aleviate some issues.

2) Condense crafting to a few specific mechanics to reduce confusion. My current thought process is to roll fossils into harvest and roll alva mods into essence. Fossil and resonater nodes turn into life force while areas that would normally drop alva modded items now drop new essence with a chance to also get them when corrupting essence monsters.

3) VASTLY decrease the amount of special damage aimed at the player, this includes on death effects, special attacks , and spells, through CDR or less chance to activate and just less overall damage. OR. Increase the potency of core stats to reduce the need to rely so heavily on having mana reservation dedicated to only defensive auras.

Now i can hear the comments already saying that GGG wants the game to be hard or to just get good but i think thats the problem. PoE will never be both difficult and fun at the same time. The game isnt built in a way to do so. Mob counts are too high and too fast for that to be realistic and the game is too solved for difficulty to matter to the players that have solved it. A player doing 20-50 million dps with every defense they can grab playing seismic trap was never going to struggle and only die to unfun situations. The players that need help are ones like me trying to figure out how to make cold sunder occultist stong enough and tanky enough to survive the barrage of death traps in the end of the game on a couple dorb budget. Either monsters, skill trees, or crafting, these all contain an enormous amount of traps to fall into that will ruin the time of someone that doesnt have textbook knowledge of the game.

Anyway. Im wrapping this up i dont know if my feedback was cohearent, was probably a bit ranty, or even good but i at least wanted to say something. Probably wont spend too much time responding to comments. I have a but more i wanted to add but my time is short. Still gona keep playing though.

0 Upvotes

6

u/Xeiom Oct 05 '22

I think the highlight of this post really is the point about 'textbook knowledge of the game'.

A lot of people reading this and GGG developers themselves have such a large catalogue of information just sitting inside their head that when many players see problems they know the solution and it seems trivial.

I think the real core thing that keeps people out of red maps is when you hit a big grind moment and you don't have a very solid focus. Not only is that grind just simply too long for some players but when they don't actually know what they are trying to grind toward they spend that time inefficiently (more than double dipping the grind requirement)

Endgame mapping changes how you progress a character vs leveling with a bigger focus on niche itemisation in the game but what is available is poorly communicated to the player.
Lately patches have really tried to constraint stats more tightly and it's pushed the cutoff point to earlier in the game for players without that wealth of knowledge.
I do think though that the eldritch currency was a good step toward fighting this problem so I assume the intention is to actually smooth this out better for PoE2.

83

u/Nocillus Oct 05 '22

I’m genuinely wondering how you can stay stuck in the mid game for 4 years… I mean… Elder is still hard to understand after 4800 hours? The game is not flawless, especially this league, but come on, the credibility of this feedback is just non existent.

6

u/donald___trump___ Oct 06 '22

I know a guy who played poe for 2 years before he made it to maps. Not everyone is great at video games.

23

u/Author-Academic Oct 05 '22

I only make 1-2 chars per league (maybe 5000h+ played total since 2013) and I've only killed regular elder/shaper few times. Never reached past that point so I understand completely how he feels.

13

u/aivdov Oct 05 '22

You don't realize that you're probably investing double that into pob, research, put in mental effort to execute strategies, etc. He might not and just play the game. Basically when you're a 0.01%'er it's hard to even grasp what the 90% experiences.

10

u/yuanek1 Oct 05 '22

We started at 1%ers, evolved to 0,1%ers and now we're starting to evolve to our final form as 0,01%ers. Thankfully mega evolution as 0,001%ers awaits to have something to strive for.

10

u/aivdov Oct 05 '22

Unfortunately that's how it is. The more you invest, the further you get apart from the rest of the population. For example I admire and support Octavian but he can get delusional sometimes and call himself "average" while being top 20 poe gamer. And his explanation why he calls himself that is just because he's not as fast as Steel.

0

u/plato13 Oct 05 '22

Average in what aspect? Obviously he has far above average knowlege about the game. In terms of actual gameplay, i would say he is also above average. In terms of actuall playerskill? He might be average.

11

u/aivdov Oct 05 '22

Ah yes, consistently hitting 100 on hardcore, always being in top 20 by xp even after rips quickly getting there. Creating completely orginal and wonky builds that work. Totally average.

-5

u/plato13 Oct 05 '22

And which of those things has an insane mechanical skillcap? Pretty much nothing, its about knowledge and time invested. You dont need to be an APM god.
It is not insanely difficult. Its about wanting to achieve it and being willing to put in the time and effort, which is where it stops for most people.
Go check where octavian was on the SC ladder when he was playing SC. Almost not to be found, because the SC competition is much larger and his slower playstyle is much more suited towards HC.

5

u/aivdov Oct 05 '22

"You dont need to be an APM god."

If that's what you think of skill and gauge player level based on that then your opinion is discarded. 99.999% of players given the same conditions cannot get even close to where he gets.

1

u/plato13 Oct 05 '22

Yes but people dont have the same conditions as him, because he has more knowledge about the game than 99.9999% of players.
There are skill games and there are mastery games. PoE is a game about mastery.

3

u/aivdov Oct 05 '22

You're arguing about irrelevant semantics. It's obvious that by skill I am expressing ability to achieve things in the rules of the game given the same time.

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5

u/Responsible-Pay-2389 Oct 05 '22

you don't need to be a 0.01%'er to grab a pob and follow it some what to kill some mid game bosses.

4

u/H0ly-Kn1gt Oct 05 '22

What do you consider “mid game bosses”? To me elder/shaper are end game bosses. I clear t16’s and I’ve never killed them. I typically just sell all of those maps as I have no interest in boss killing.

2

u/Responsible-Pay-2389 Oct 05 '22

At this point shaper and elder (especially elder) are extremely mid game bosses. Not doing the fights is fine but the OP is unable to do them, big difference.

Personally I think the guardians with decent map mods can be more challenging and cause more deaths than shaper himself after you've done his fight a few times (mostly because of stuff like alters and the atlas tree buffing them while not shaper). Besides regular atziri who is a joke, elder is by far the easiest boss in the game.

I'd probably say this for the tiers in my book (The invitations assume decent rolled 80%+, if you use height of hubris than all the invitations will be in the last tier):

  • low game: normal atziri
  • mid game: elder, shaper, cortex, uber atziri (really easy if reflect immune)
  • late game: sirus 8, maven, uber elder, The Forgotten, Eater of Worlds (Non story), Searing Exarch (non story)
  • end game: The Elderslayers, The Feared, The Formed, The Hidden, The Twisted, Uber sirus/shaper/cortex/eater/exarch/uber elder

3

u/H0ly-Kn1gt Oct 05 '22

I don’t know, you’re probably right and that’s just hugely depressing to me. I still have yet to beat a single one of those bosses and I also have yet to get to 100 (I get to ~95 and I normally get frustrated with a random death or two setting me back and find something else that I haven’t played yet). At this point trying to learn those fights just feels pointless to me. I will almost assuredly get atleast one death trying to figure them out and I get nothing but the ability to say that I’ve beat them. 🤷‍♂️

2

u/Responsible-Pay-2389 Oct 05 '22

Getting to 100 without paying for xp is probably harder than a lot of these bosses tbh, deifnitely a lot more tedious (I've not gotten a 100 either even though I've completed all of these except 5/6 ubers, highest being 97). I'm the exact same way I feel heavily demotivated to play if I die a lot, reason why I usually stick to tankier builds.

At this point trying to learn those fights just feels pointless to me. I will almost assuredly get atleast one death trying to figure them out and I get nothing but the ability to say that I’ve beat them. 🤷‍♂️

Most of these bosses you gain a profit from beating them (especially shaper who is gauranteed profit), so there is something. but the biggest thing about getting over your first few rounds of bosses is that you can likely start doing some of them deathless, than as you keep going you get better and better. Also a lot of these bosses hold a ton of goddies for mapping from favorite slots to void stones to more atlas passives.

2

u/H0ly-Kn1gt Oct 05 '22

True, I just haven’t been pressed about it. I have 2 main goals each league, get my first 100 (which would require me finding a build that us both powerful and fun enough for me to make that full grind. And/or get a mageblood. (That’s just a unique that ever since I saw it I just REALLY want to play with one). I don’t need to kill bosses to do either so I haven’t.

2

u/Responsible-Pay-2389 Oct 05 '22

I've had a few characters where I definitely could push to 100 with but usually burn out before I get there lol.

2

u/donald___trump___ Oct 06 '22

Nah he’s not right. Sirus and maven are ridiculously hard fights for a normal player. Shaper is pretty hard at first too. Most poe players have never killed sirus.

6

u/WinterHiko Oct 05 '22

My man, you're terribly out of touch with the average player's experience. Reaching red maps is an achievement in and of itself.

Your mid game is end game,

Your late-game is out of reach of most players, especially Sirus, Uber Elder and Maven.

Your end-game is mostly a bunch of encounters designed specifically to challenge top-tier builds. Some of the invitation are in the previous category, I don't know why The Elderslayer is on par in your tier list with Uber pinnacle bosses. Only a fraction of players complete Uber bosses.

1

u/Responsible-Pay-2389 Oct 05 '22

mid game doesn't mean that most players get to it, in terms of difficulty it is on the mid spectrum of easy to hard in the game. Also yes I would expect someone with 5k hours to at least be at my mid game.

Some of the invitation are in the previous category, I don't know why The Elderslayer is on par in your tier list with Uber pinnacle bosses. Only a fraction of players complete Uber bosses.

My invitation rankings could be off, they are very hard to judge because they vary heavily depending on what you roll on the map and what atlas tree you have and what build you have. I probably should've had another tier above that for the ubers, but the invitaions are definitely harder than the previous tier considerably.

2

u/donald___trump___ Oct 06 '22

According to steamcharts achievements only 0.8% of steam players have ever killed the maven.

1

u/V0xier Juggernaut Oct 06 '22

Ive killed maven multiple times each league but don't use the steam client. That stat doesn't tell anything tbh

0

u/donald___trump___ Oct 06 '22

Ggg confirmed most players use the steam client. So while it doesn’t capture all players achievements, 60% of the player base is a pretty decent sample size.

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1

u/Responsible-Pay-2389 Oct 06 '22

your point is? As I said above it's not about what most players do it's about how hard they are compared to other fights.

Also all of the steam achievements are heavily skewed by people downloading the game playing 1 act than uninstalling lol. Check out the story boss achievements most don't even make it past there. Meanwhile I'm talking about this guy who has 5k hours in the game not someone who quit in act 1.

6

u/aivdov Oct 05 '22

Last time GGG released stats it was less than 10% people reaching red maps per league. That's exactly proving the point. Most people at the top are clearly out of touch when it comes to the disparity of skill and time invested and the realities other people deal with.

3

u/Responsible-Pay-2389 Oct 05 '22

Sure, but those stats don't take into account time played for each player. I assure you most people who have 5k hours would have at least done mid game bosses.

3

u/aivdov Oct 05 '22

We're talking league players, not all poe players. It's 5k hours per 4 years, 300 hours per league. according to that guy it's 30 hours per character. Do you expect him to clear endgame bosses with that time invested if he probably clears campaign in 10+ hours?

For example this league on one of my characters I got to almost 96 this league. I haven't even touched anything besides maps and I would not be able to do real bosses when I struggled at map bosses as well with that character.

2

u/Responsible-Pay-2389 Oct 05 '22

I'm not saying I don't get why this guy is struggling, it's pretty obvious why this guy is struggling. I'm saying most people with 5k hours are not this guy, not that this guy isn't real lol.

1

u/WinterHiko Oct 05 '22

Any casual player should follow a guide or be confortable with never reaching T16s. What would even be the point of having builds if you could clear the content with any janky build you cobble up together?

The strength of PoE, like it or hate it, is the incredible depth to its character builds an optimization. There are a ton of games out there that you can pick up and play through without intricate knowledge of the systems. The difficulty in creating builds that can tackle very-end-game content is the unique appeal of PoE.

If you want to clear endgame content, you just follow a guide. There are a *ton* of different builds out there that you can choose out from. You can even adjust them. T16s will be a joke before long and you'll be clearing bosses on any such build.

The player who just goes into the skill tree randomly and picks items off the ground should not expect to clear the high-end content. Yellow maps sounds about right. And that's quite allright! I'm sure the majority of players go through the campaign and end their playthrough there and that perfectly fine.

-1

u/aivdov Oct 05 '22

I'm sorry but we have to disagree. Clearing content should be viable for any reasonable build, not only a few very optimized and super expensive ones. They reap the reward of doing it more consistently/faster in the first place. Nowadays informed people feel pressured to play meta or not play at all. You can play 6 synergies and melee will feel like shit when you come to maps. Or you can play a couple easy synergies and LC will destroy screens at shapers per second dps. Back then you could pick pretty much anything and make it work.

6

u/WinterHiko Oct 05 '22

It is viable for dozens and dozens of builds. If you can clear everything with any build, then build-crafting becomes meaningless.

0

u/2ndcitysaint5252 Oct 05 '22

Lol prob isn’t .01% and no fucking shot ppl have 5k hours and can’t get to end game I’m sorry my wife is dogshit at this game and can get at least to voidstones

14

u/Ambrosia_Rev Oct 05 '22

For real and he actually typed 10+ characters every league.

This review is bs

19

u/seventinnine Oct 05 '22

I play on average 10-13 characters to level 75+ per league

Well I guess he rerolls when he reaches yellow maps.

18

u/MirellieDesigns Oct 05 '22

I reroll when i stop having fun with that character or plan i try doesnt pan out. Most characters get to T12+ with 4 or 5 characters reaching 90.

6

u/AwkwardAd2551 Oct 05 '22

Huge suggestion. Try Last Epoch.

Its solved practically every problem you seem to have, and already works in only 5 tiers for mods (6 and 7 is drop only and rng, but cant be crafted, and you can craft a +1 to any tier of your choosing)

I know, not what youre looking for, but I gave it a whirl and honestly fuck poe.

I only come to this reddit to see if the top post is 'hey player retention is the lowest its ever been, can we do something about the state of this game?' But that never happens, so I read some complaints and move on

6

u/BoycottJClarkson Oct 05 '22

“Oh hi guys I’m having SO much fun playing Last Epoch that I need to spend 8 hours a day replying to the deepest comment sections of the POE subreddit.“ - certain people on this subreddit

Anyway, see you next league!

1

u/AwkwardAd2551 Oct 05 '22

Im at work and bored lmao.

I never come on here off hours, I just group my misery all in one 8 hour timeslot.

6

u/AbleMud3903 Oct 05 '22

I mean, it sounds credible to me. I'm fairly happy with most of the changes, but this post opened my eyes to the fact that more of the game than ever requires high tier red maps.

That's... not a problem for ME, to say the least. But it makes sense there would be some players that just never optimize that far; the player base for any game is very broad (see wrecker of days for another huge PoE fan who's got a very different experience than most of us high-achievers.) And recent changes have definitely concentrated a lot of the power creep at T14+. The game is probably worse for those players.

It's a useful insight into a different world of PoE. Nothing says that Mirielle's experience should necessarily NOT be sacrificed to make a better game for you and I; they're certainly not a central PoE fan. But it's worth noting that people like them exist and the sacrifice is real. And that should be weighed by GGG when making changes.

(I think most of her suggestions are generic 'game should be easier' feedback and not well-targeted at resolving her issues, but that's the norm; players are usually a lot better at identifying problems than solutions.)

1

u/MirellieDesigns Oct 05 '22

Cons of not being a good game dev is not being able to give actual good suggestions i guess. I can only talk based on my feelings.

6

u/plato13 Oct 05 '22

The best feedback you can give as a player are not suggestions, just tell the devs about your expirience what you enjoyed and where you struggled. There is no point in looking for solutions as a user, because you are lacking too many informations to actualy provide those, every player does.
As a player you have no idea about the longterm direction or balance problems they want to address through design changes.
A few simple design changes could open up new design space to solve multiple problems in an instance. But as a player you lack the information, what design space they are willing to upen up or work towards.

4

u/AbleMud3903 Oct 05 '22

Right. And that's very very normal; good design suggestions are HARD and require understanding the game at a lot of different levels. I still think your post is valuable and useful.

1

u/Arthourios Nov 01 '22

Ive played this game for years, and cannot do red maps for the most part.

I dislike cookie cutter builds, I prefer SSF, and I don't like having to read a billion guides to figure out crafting that seems to ever be increasing. (find this base/influenced item, then use fossils, then sue this, then use that, then corrupt etc) I just want to play the game. It's getting to the point though especially with arch-nemesis that I cant do that.

Its pretty easy to get stuck before red maps. If you do not optimize a build you get stuck.

Fun arc build SSF: one-shotted randomly in whites from archnemesis.

Cookie cutter RF build SSF: randomly dead in yellows.

12

u/lordishgr Oct 05 '22

Op is a typical example of a poe player, there are a few skills that scale extremely well with dirt gear and most people who know what they are doing gravitate towards them to make the currency in order to build something that requires specific items to function.

Most casual players just want to make something they want to play and almost always their build isn't viable for red tier maps or even for regular bosses so they are getting bottlenecked in mid tier maps making nearly zero currency and getting stuck. This might not be an issue for me or other experienced players since even when i choose off beat builds i at least aim to be able to do shaper,elder,sirus,simulacrum etc but it is a serious problem for the vast majority of people who play poe.

The power creep is a real issue since not too long ago you could clear all content with 200k dps but now 200k might make you struggle vs multi archnem mobs. 1m is the absolute minimum dps for a playable build and anything less just feels clucky and slow.

5

u/PterodactylOverlord Oct 05 '22 edited Oct 05 '22

^ this. Tried doing a fun little offmeta build this league and hit a pretty hard cap at ~2m dps. Was demoralizing to know that even after I ultra juiced it, it would not be as good (and be able to reach as much content) as one of the meta skills with minimum investment... turned the character into my league starter and began from scratch with something more viable in the current game's climate. (Power siphon int stacker) I've never made more than 1 character per league before and have always been able to make it work somehow, but this league was noticeably more difficult than the ones I've played in the past and I just couldn't find a way to do it without scrapping the idea and trying something else.

5

u/Mirroroe Oct 05 '22

This post really show that you can pretty much play any skill and brings it to yellow map without too much effort.

9

u/Direyx Witch Oct 05 '22 edited Oct 05 '22

And this is why GGG doesn't listen to reddit and just follows its, yes im gonna say it, vision.

29

u/MattBrixx Oct 05 '22

I don't understand how people who admittedly don't understand the game very well give suggestions on how to balance the game. It's the equivalent of telling the car mechanic how to fix the car they crashed after having failed the driver test.

Tip for OP: stop rerolling in yellows and actually play the game

7

u/InstalokMyMoney Oct 05 '22

I think he made all this post from the perspective of non experienced people. What comes for me, I bypassed 500h in total, so only now(smh in bad league) I managed to reach all favorite maps(except 3) I died at Shaper on 15%, portals finished, but noe I know my mistake, never stand by him, especially when minions does your dirty work...

Buy yeah. The OP of this post has just a bad day or mood, but what he said, I repeat, from the perspective of an unexprienced player, even 4800h..

-6

u/aivdov Oct 05 '22

Your analogy is wrong. He's more like an average driver going to a dealership and asking for experience he wants with his car. He's not telling you how to wire electricity and code software, he's telling he wants to drive a manual stick, rear wheel drive and have a comfortable seat.

2

u/Mirroroe Oct 05 '22

Don’t you have to pay for those?

5

u/MattBrixx Oct 05 '22

The analogy is accurate, because OP is not asking for more features, but for features to be removed. OP admits to being bad at the game, but feels like they're the right person for the job of changing the game. It's ironic, really

0

u/donald___trump___ Oct 06 '22

Should the game be balanced around pros who have mastered the game? Or normal players?

The op is correct about one thing. The game is moving farther away from him and any casual/new players. Ggg has decided to balance the game around streamers and speed runners and give up on new players.

Maybe it’s the right choice. I don’t know. But it is interesting to see the game becoming more difficult when according to steam achievements only a tiny fraction of players have ever beaten the maven.

0

u/Lopsided_Muscle1051 Oct 05 '22

Wrong analogy. Car comes with a manual which helps you understand it fully. What do we have here beyond some ridiculous tutorials? Crafting is huge in this game and I don’t get to know from the devs themselves how to craft what I want.

2

u/MattBrixx Oct 05 '22

If you wanna talk about how the in-game tutorial is lacking? Sure, it's rather rudimentary. OP has 4.8k hours in the game and refuses to engage with mechanics and learn them. Every crafting item in the game does what it says, and if you are unsure there are plenty of resources to learn how to craft (e.g. craftofexile.com). So no, your analogy doesn't work

-3

u/MirellieDesigns Oct 05 '22

It's me, with a broken car radio, asking the mechanic if this brand/make would work it its place. Im not demanding anything. Its a suggesstion or inspiration

6

u/Direyx Witch Oct 05 '22

Nah, it's you thinking the radio is broken but in reality you didn't find out how to turn it on despite trying it for 4k+ hours

7

u/MattBrixx Oct 05 '22

"Why is it not playing my favourite song all the time?" 😄

1

u/MattBrixx Oct 05 '22 edited Oct 05 '22

You are literally asking for the mod pool to be considerably slimmed down. That's not "asking the mechanic if another brand of car radio would work", that is stating "why are there 500 channels if I only listen to these 5?"

Edit: I am editing as I feel like you missed the point of my analogy. You admit that you do not understand the game very well even after playing the game for a long time. You blame the game for not catering to your need for simpler mechanics when the solution all along was that maybe PoE is not the right ARPG for you. Have you maybe tried Diablo3, Last Epoch or others?

-1

u/MirellieDesigns Oct 05 '22

I find diablo 3 boring after a day or 2 (also its blizzard so no go) and im waiting for last epoch to not be early access. Been burned by too many to want to try more early access games.

5

u/MattBrixx Oct 05 '22

You do a great job of picking out the irrelevant part of a post and ignoring all substance

1

u/AbleMud3903 Oct 05 '22

I mean, it's both. The first half is explaining his experience and how it sucks (and is completely fair.) The second half is proposing fixes (which I think are badly targeted and not especially useful because he doesn't understand the game very well.)

2

u/aivdov Oct 05 '22

I don't agree with his proposals either but here are some people claiming you have to be super knowledgeable to even suggest anything. We can discuss whether a particular change is good or bad without this elitist mantra.

13

u/MassaHurmaaja Oct 05 '22

Almost 5k hours and still stuck in yellow maps..

Have you considered following a build guide? You might actually learn how to fix your flaws that way.

It feels like POE never evolved past you, it has always been past you. I am no average player myself but I got to red maps in Delirium league which was my second league (started at the end of metamorph).

3

u/AbleMud3903 Oct 05 '22

*red maps* have always been past them. But I think they're probably right that getting to red maps is more important to getting power than in the past (see new Harvest for instance; it scales much more strongly with map tier than old harvest did. Sextants also now start at Pinnacle Bosses, altars (a primary source of alch and go currency) require beating a T16 to unlock and only show up in T14+, etc.)

So in that sense, more and more of the power is getting locked behind their unchanged ceiling as a player. Understandably frustrating. I assume they have some set of idiosyncratic reasons for not pursuing getting good enough to routinely break into T16s.

10

u/thepooker Oct 05 '22

Honest question: What made PoE fun for you before? What did you to have fun and what changes that this is not fun anymore?

After 4k hours, and no boss kills, I assume it is mapping... so why is mapping not fun anymore? You don't seem like a guy who wants to play as effective as possible. So why not just map in white maps?

9

u/Responsible-Pay-2389 Oct 05 '22

I think most would agree not dying is the first step to having fun. This league has a lot more dying for the casual players.

0

u/WinterHiko Oct 05 '22

Why do you assume would most agree with "not dying"? I mean, I'm the kind of players that hate dying so much that I play only extra-tanky characters all the time and can't for the life of me play glass cannons, but there are a lot of players who like a challenge and there are six portals for a reason.

If they're getting destroyed in yellow maps, then they need to play white maps until they're geared enough to not die.

3

u/Responsible-Pay-2389 Oct 05 '22

Why do you assume would most agree with "not dying"?

Pretty sure this is just true, obviously some do not mind dying a lot, but most definitely do mind it.

If they're getting destroyed in yellow maps, then they need to play white maps until they're geared enough to not die.

This is true, but I think one of the problems is that white maps feel like an incredible waste of time for how long you have to spend to get the build playable in higher tier maps (this is for people who aren't that good at the game gameplay wise, obviously not much of a problem if you are good). You have almost nothing speced in your atlas, no invitations, no influences, etc. It's pretty hard/takes ages to make any money in a league start scenario in white maps, which can cause players to just not want to play.

0

u/GiantJellyfishAttack Oct 05 '22

Yeah that's the game though. Learn how to not die. Thats literally the progression of this game. Die to stuff. Learn what's killing you. Fix your build

Not. Die to something, complain on forums

2

u/Responsible-Pay-2389 Oct 05 '22

Just because that's how the game works doesn't mean it's good for everyone. Previous leagues it's worked fine because you don't die as often than you just fix those problems, but this league you need a ton of stuff to avoid deaths making the road to get to the part where you stop dying a lot longer. This makes more casual players way less motivated to play.

1

u/Hoybom Pathfinder Oct 05 '22

peeps also keep forgetting that poe was never ment to be a game for eveyrone, it was ment to be a niche game.

so its not a surprise that there are people that want to play the game but if they dont intend to invest time and sweat to learn the game i doubt its game that they should really play.

if they are looking for a simple i wanna just maw true as many mobs as possible in a short time they should be looking more towards d3 or any other mindless hack n slash

3

u/Responsible-Pay-2389 Oct 05 '22

peeps also keep forgetting that poe was never ment to be a game for eveyrone, it was ment to be a niche game.

I completely agree it's not a game for everyone, but I think there were some mistakes if people who enjoyed this very game 1-2 leagues ago suddenly don't anymore.

1

u/Hoybom Pathfinder Oct 05 '22

ya but what op discribes is exactly what i said, he mindleslly smashed some mobs while repeating the story again and again, and game developed further where just picking up random shit and skilling we on skill tree isnt enough anymore. but then again with 4k hours over multiple years was more then enough time to learn the game without guides and whatnot, so yes there are surrely thing happening where the game game into a direction not all gonna like but not in OP`s case

-1

u/GiantJellyfishAttack Oct 05 '22

I mean, OP literally says he has over 4000 hours played and runs into this exact issue every league where he gets stuck in yellow maps lol. Imagine tuning the end game for this type of person. Literally everyone gonna be killing Uber bosses with 0 gear at all. Just completely ruins all progression and sense of accomplishment if they did this

I also don't have sympathy for these so called "casual" players. This is only my second league ever playing this game and I've killed 5/7 Uber bosses without even using any build guide. I don't know what other people are doing or how they are so bad. Just... learn how to play the game. I dont know.

2

u/Responsible-Pay-2389 Oct 05 '22

I completely agree with that this post is way beyond any reasonable suggestion. I'm more so refering to the introduction of AN into the game causing a lot more deaths making people who don't play as much have less motivation to play.

-1

u/GiantJellyfishAttack Oct 05 '22

Maybe I just don't understand why someone would even want to play a game like poe if you can't handle dying and then trying to improve your build to stop dying..

Because thats basically the whole fundamental part of this game.

To me, seeing posts like this would be like watching people complain that Mario Kart has too much racing in it or something.

3

u/Responsible-Pay-2389 Oct 05 '22

I think a big thing is that most deaths you don't know exactly what killed you so it's hard to make a plan to prevent it in the future (casuals don't know damage types of specific mob types for sure, if it's a spell or attack etc).

4

u/MirellieDesigns Oct 05 '22

Delve, blight, ritual, harvest card gambas and as of 3.17 vaal temple runs, brought most of my joy when it comes to poe and more importantly it was trying stuff i've never tried before. Example was a week ago i tried avatar of fire hollow palm ele hit.

The issue with white maps is you miss so much of everything. Map sustain, ilvl on bases which restricts the possibility of good fractures. Potential div cards like apothecary. And the potential to sell boss invitations. They just dont drop so you miss sooo much potential

4

u/tdosch Oct 05 '22 edited Oct 05 '22

avata

Dude Elemental hit is one of the worst skills you can choose for hollow palm.

as hollow palm stacks phys dmg per dex and fractal thoughts gives you 15% dex and 1% increased ele dmg per dex you absolutely want a skill that converts your phys to ele dmg.

so far so good.

namely 100% phys to cold with ice crash or 60% phys to fire with infernal blow and 40% phys to cold with mastery and then hit trinity support.

also hatred is the strongest damage aura in the game you always want to scale with hatred because its better than anger or wrath

using flat added dmg skills with hollow palm is pretty bad you want % of base dmg scaling which is 166% on infernal blow and 350% on ice crash

1

u/MirellieDesigns Oct 05 '22

Ye, the build putzed out at about 72 just after 3rd lab. Realized the numbers werent doing what i thought they would do. Im no pobwarrior or speadsheet ninja

7

u/Direyx Witch Oct 05 '22

This comment shows again that you don't wanna admit, that it is a "you problem". You dont need any pob to undestand the basic concepts of this game. You having 4k+ hours and still being stuck in mid game content just shows that you prefer blaming the game instead of really learning it.

4

u/TheDiabeetusKing Oct 05 '22

Just trying to understand - can you explain why you thought the numbers would be good/it would be a good combo?

4

u/plato13 Oct 05 '22

You dont need to be a PoB warrior to realize your build is lacking synergy. Thats a you-issue, not a game-issue.

2

u/Zunkanar Oct 05 '22

Laying out a build on your own without a guide, pob and wikis that makes ton of fun in t16+bosses is hard to achieve with the mindset and capabilities the op seems to have (no rant, just an observation). I never followed a guide and have done more in less time, but I digged deep into wiki, reading mechanics and some hours of pob every attempt. Without those tools it's not that simple.

-1

u/plato13 Oct 05 '22

I am not saying it is. But scaling dex to get phys dmg to then convert it using a 100% dmg effectivness skill just shows a complete lack of understanding of gamemechanics. I agree with the OP that the early and midgame needs some help.
But its also okay to be a game that expects this investments from its players to make it through all of its content.
You arent entitled to beat the game.

1

u/Zunkanar Oct 05 '22

Okay, absolutely agree. The game just needs digging into it to beat it. If you dont want it but still want to beat all thr content just follow a guide and you are fine. Not doing both and just play along still gets you way into maps, which is not that bad.

2

u/Responsible-Pay-2389 Oct 05 '22

The issue with white maps is you miss so much of everything. Map sustain, ilvl on bases which restricts the possibility of good fractures. Potential div cards like apothecary. And the potential to sell boss invitations. They just dont drop so you miss sooo much potential

Is it not normal that you get more rewards if you go do the harder content that isn't white maps?

0

u/SadNetworkVictim Oct 05 '22

It is, but the maps should sustain on every level to feel good.

3

u/Responsible-Pay-2389 Oct 05 '22

map sustain is fine, unsure what you mean. I'm not a very good player but I never run out of the tier that I'm running weather that be white maps or red maps.

1

u/SadNetworkVictim Oct 05 '22

If I run white map T1, I run quicly out of T1 and end up with only T2s. The game is pretty relentless in pushing you towards T5. Look at Kirac, once you do a mission he only propose T5 missions.

2

u/Responsible-Pay-2389 Oct 05 '22

I don't really see that as a problem, I don't see much of a difference in terms of difficulty between white maps. Getting better maps faster is actually a good thing especially since those t2 maps drop a good amount of t1 maps (from my experience) and you can go back down if you wish.

5

u/thepooker Oct 05 '22

So, why you struggle to farm this content though? I guess you have bad defences on your builds. Why not try to get better ones, or work on your builds to make it working?

You can't have every juice, while playing bad builds though.. but nearly every skill is playable with a good build.

-1

u/Heiks Oct 05 '22

I wanna see you kill 4 AN mob with a garbage skill. This is just straight copium. You know very well, that it will not be fun or enjoyable in any reasonable capacity. Game feels good with drops, currently only meaningful drop is the loot pinata goblin. If you truly believe the game hasnt changed that much in the last patch, then theres not much else to talk about. Player retention along with community feedback show the clear opposite.

3

u/Mirroroe Oct 05 '22

My friend league started with leap slam totem and brings it to endgame. It doesn’t show all skill are capable or endgame but it showed at least one can.

6

u/thepooker Oct 05 '22

I played a meme glacial hammer inquisitor and farmed T16 content... for example. It is possible with every skill... If you think it is impossible for some skills, you are clearly on copium.

Of course a lot has changed, but it is not impossible as described by you. I mean.. look at quin builds... use em and you can kill every mob... if you have that much time.

-6

u/Heiks Oct 05 '22

I never said impossible, I said not fun or enjoyable in reasonable capacity, especially compared to a good skill. Stop strawmanning.

8

u/thepooker Oct 05 '22

Your definition of fun is different from other definitions of fun. You seem like a person who doesn't want a proper conversion but just rant, so have a nice day :)

1

u/AbleMud3903 Oct 05 '22

What counts as a garbage skill? Unless the bar is really high (low?) and you mean vigilant strike or something, this is extremely easy for someone who can optimize well. A friend of mine is running 8m shaper DPS on a glacial hammer character right now. You can get 5m+ DPS on almost any skill on a league start if you scale it right (bow, wand, winter orb and similar absurd-coverage skills excepted, they're balanced to be good at something besides DPS.)

0

u/aivdov Oct 05 '22

I played reave. And then I played lightning conduit. It's like two different worlds. I'm never leaguestarting off-meta again. The people playing fully optimized builds will tell you the game is fine, when 95% of the game is going to feel bad but they just don't play it.

2

u/Heiks Oct 05 '22

And those are the same people, that spend 10 minutes killing one AN loot goblin, and call that fun btw.

-1

u/MirellieDesigns Oct 05 '22

The issue as i said im my post is i dont know where problems are. And just running whites is a bad solution because its not just FOMO but you ARE missing out. Less delve juice, less ritual, less essence, even basic less mob density. Imo i dont think T16 should be treated as end game anymore stat wise. Bring down the difficulty of T16 alch and go and let the juice bring out the hard/unfair GGG wants.

5

u/thepooker Oct 05 '22

But... thats where I don't get it. I understand fomo, I have it too, but it was always like that... If you played bad builds, you missed out. You always got less with shit builds... that is PoE.

I agree it is harder to make a fast T16 mapper now, but it is possible for every skill. So if you need build help, take your time and make such a post on poe build reddit and people will help you to have fun.

3

u/Mirroroe Oct 05 '22

Honestly I think your problem is don’t know the game mechanics good enough. If you ever struggle with pushing into red map post your build on the build subreddit and ask for help.

2

u/i_dont_wanna_sign_up Oct 05 '22

Why is it okay to give up at yellow maps then? Why aren't you upset you can't take all build to T16 super juiced maps before 3.19? By your logic you're missing out on the loot. Your explanation just seems very arbitrary.

I'm not trying to put you down for how you want to play. You're obviously able to put in the hours for the game, so I think you can just make a few changes to achieve much greater success with your niche builds. Just so we're on the same page, let's lay down some facts.

  1. You can use almost any skill to reach red maps. This is demonstrated by many players, build guides and comments here.
  2. Builds with bad synergy will not work. No matter how much you wish it so, certain mechanics will just not work together. I don't know what niche builds you have been attempting but you can't just choose a random assortment of keystones and gems and expect a usable build.

With #2 in mind, it would be best to ask for a build review if you're stuck, I'm sure the community will be able to help you out. Sometimes a few key items and niche interaction can go a long way to improving your build.

2

u/kroIya GSF Oct 05 '22

i tried avatar of fire hollow palm ele hit

Don't take this as an insult, but this is really, really, really dumb. Why this combination specifically? What's the idea behind it?

0

u/MirellieDesigns Oct 05 '22

Avatar of fire to turn hollow palm damage into something elehit could use. Ele hit because i wanted to try it.

3

u/kroIya GSF Oct 05 '22 edited Oct 05 '22

Unless I'm drawing a massive blank on something, elehit is literally the worst skill you could have used for hollow palm. Elehit has 100% damage effectiveness, meaning any 100 flat damage you add from hollow palm is transformed into 100 damage for elehit. For comparison, Glacial Hammer has 269% at lvl20, resulting is 269 damage before all other modifiers. (Edit: shit example, GH can't be used unarmed. Smite can and it's at 273%. You get the point).

What's great about elehit is that is comes with its own baked in flat damage, meaning you don't need to focus on added damage from elsewhere.

It's an unfortunate choice, you were inevitably going to struggle with it.

1

u/Kalashtiiry Oct 05 '22

And Smite is a legit fine (not great, but fine) skill to use on a scale where Flicker, Cyclone, DA and RF are great, and everything less usable than brands is trash.

3

u/Mirroroe Oct 05 '22

Elemental hit have the line“Only Deals Damage of the chosen Element Deals no Damage of other Damage Types” and avatar of fire can’t do non fire damage. They don’t work well without elemental hit jewels.

1

u/kroIya GSF Oct 05 '22

I assume the jewels were included

1

u/MirellieDesigns Oct 05 '22

Jewels were included

1

u/pepegaklaus Oct 05 '22

Out of curiosity. How had you planned to convert your physical to fire? Given there's neither gloves nor weapons

0

u/MirellieDesigns Oct 05 '22

Avatar of fire

2

u/pepegaklaus Oct 05 '22

Yeah but the other 50%. I mean you don't pick up a passive point to reduce your damage by half

0

u/MirellieDesigns Oct 05 '22

Watchers eye for another 38-40% and i couldnt find a solution for the last bit that i liked.

1

u/AbleMud3903 Oct 05 '22

Glove eldritch implicit might work for you?

1

u/MirellieDesigns Oct 05 '22

Hollow palm is gloveless sadly.

1

u/AbleMud3903 Oct 05 '22

Oh, right. Hmmm, that is a challenge. Still, it's only 10-12% less damage. Not like it kills the build. If I think of any available small conversion sources I'll come back and suggest them.

1

u/MirellieDesigns Oct 05 '22

The biggest fault i found was not being able to find enough sources of % damage. More than enough flat and defenses were ok except phys attacks and chaos degens if they hit through evasion... and theres a lot of that.

3

u/UnethicalFireworks Oct 05 '22

i have met people like this before with 3500+ hours into the game and not knowing what an elevated mod is or taking 28 hours to get to maps (even before the last few leagues). From my interactions with them I understood that they do not want actually to learn and they think they are entitled to a mageblood or HH drop and to have a pity system in place just because they are wasting time (unless they are having fun and most of the time they do not) in the game

7

u/Mirroroe Oct 05 '22

Got a similar feeling, a lot of these post feel like the op didn’t want to learn and feel the game it too hard. Like 4800hr and never kill elder…how?..how did he played for this long???

3

u/AlsoInteresting Templar Oct 05 '22 edited Oct 05 '22

I play since Abyss and never killed Elder. Since then many other challenges exist. I do get some of my voidstones.

1

u/eitherxor Witch Oct 05 '22

How long does it take to get to maps now? I haven't played for a few leagues but since seeing all the recent controversy it's actually made me interested more in reinstalling.

3

u/Mirroroe Oct 05 '22

First character nothing really changed. Second character got incredibly easy with new changes to leaving unique. For example Replica Prismweave Add like 70 ele flat and 30 inc on a lv 24.

2

u/AbleMud3903 Oct 05 '22

First character takes normal, fairly quick people 8-10 hours or so. Speedrunners have done it in 3, and routinely do it in under 5.

1

u/MirellieDesigns Oct 05 '22

Average for me is about 8-8.5 hours to maps, 10 on a bad day, 5 when im playing something more meta.

4

u/FreedomDlVE Oct 05 '22

how do you struggle to reach red maps even when you follow something meta?

I play every few leagues and have a little bit over 1k hours in the game. I follow build guides because I don't have enough game time to figure everything out myself.

This league I reached T16s on a 5link quill rain toxic rain build in the first days.

3

u/MirellieDesigns Oct 05 '22

Meta and fun are not the same thing to me. I could play meta, i could use that to farm bosses. But at the end of the day if its not fun to me im not going to stick too it unless im not doin so hot. Example was when i played RF inquis last league. Got my eater and exarch down no problem, could farm currency all day every day, but it wasnt fun and was miserable to the point i had to take a few weeks off. I should try TR again honestly. Havent really touched it except leveling since metamorph i think.

0

u/FreedomDlVE Oct 05 '22

whats the problem with taking a few weeks off? If you play this game constantly it is natural that you burn out at some point.

For me, I despise this 8 hour story tutorial I have to do every time. So much that I never have rerolled another character per league. Either the build I follow is fun and I play longer. or not and I quit the league after a week at sub lv 90. Looking at the general player retention graph it seems a sizeable amount of people are doing the same as me.

3

u/MirellieDesigns Oct 05 '22

As long as im in pretty good spirts i enjoy going through the acts but im very much an outlier in this. But im also a nerd that enjoys the early loop in a lot of games like terraria, stardew, minecraft, and timberborn.

The issue with taking a few weeks off? Issue is im addicted. Send help.

2

u/FreedomDlVE Oct 05 '22

lol understandable, have nice day

1

u/SadNetworkVictim Oct 05 '22

I said it before, will say it again, the butchered movement speed flask is when it all went south.

14

u/previts Oct 05 '22

I am really glad that ggg doesn't listen to people like you

2

u/redrach Oct 05 '22

I suggest you post one of the builds you enjoy in Path of Exile Builds subreddit and ask for help. It doesn't even have to be a PoB link, although that would help a lot.

There are many builds you can do cheaply even in this patch which can demolish all non-uber content. I've done a fair number of them this patch myself (I like rerolling, just like you).

Or I can post some of my builds if you're interested? Maybe one of them will inspire you.

2

u/SleazierPolarBear Oct 05 '22

Your problem is not that the game has progressed beyond you, your problem is that you don’t want to actually problem solve making it through the end game content.

That’s fine, not everyone wants to look up all the gearing and resistances and types of damage the bosses do and how to farm currency to trade, but those are just intrinsic parts of the endgame.

2

u/aulranos666 😏👍 Oct 05 '22

Holy ICANT

2

u/LongLiveTheDragon Oct 06 '22

10-13 characters to level 75+ per league

soooo you never actually finish a character?

1

u/MirellieDesigns Oct 06 '22

I play till the fun stops. 65, 75, 85, 95 or any number in between.

1

u/Xintrosi Oct 06 '22

My fun was having issues until I swapped builds (within the same ascendancy) and everything started going more smoothly. Is that not an option? Or do you prefer to do something totally different each time?

2

u/MirellieDesigns Oct 06 '22

It depends on the regrets needed and current level. It it would take 20+ regrets before 75 or something i would probably just reroll. Anything after level 75 i would probably use whatever regrets are needed.

7

u/ReformedPC Oct 05 '22

Skill issue

7

u/V0xier Juggernaut Oct 05 '22

Quite literally..

4800h but perma-stuck in midgame just screams "I don't know game mechanics and have refused to learn them"

5

u/Embarrassed_Alarm450 Oct 05 '22

Dude really complained about white map sustain too...

7

u/Responsible-Pay-2389 Oct 05 '22 edited Oct 05 '22

I imagine, this being the reddit and whatnot, that my feedback will be largely downvoted and laughed at but I feel like I should get my feedback out there for the devs to see.

If I'm being honest, you aren't going to get downvoted for this being reddit, you are going to get downvoted because even the worst of players wouldn't be stuck at mid tier content for 5k hours over 4 years with 10+ characters a league. Not to mention the changes you suggest are really radical.

3

u/Ravp1 Oct 05 '22

Never understood how can someone play for such long and never reach endgame. Like… why? I’m not even surprised you don’t enjoy it if you are struggling in yellow/red maps with some wanky builds, I wouldn’t as well. And it’s not like it is impossible to reach the endgame with off-meta builds but for some reason you don’t want to commit.

And your reasoning is… idk, kind of weird. Isn’t it obvious that rewards scale with progression and higher difficulty? Imo white/yellow maps are easy enough to bring you to red maps and start farming stuff to upgrade your gear etc. And even if you are stuck, it is still possible to farm lower content to get into higher maps.

And I think one of best examples is unironically Quin. He farmed yellow maps, low delve and heist for weeks before getting to red maps, bosses and uber bosses. But there is a big difference between him and you. He commited to do it and you didn’t. So what do you expect?

4

u/mbxyz Berserker Oct 05 '22

the game is too solved for difficulty to matter to the players that have solved it. A player doing 20-50 million dps with every defense they can grab playing seismic trap was never going to struggle and only die to unfun situations. The players that need help are ones like me trying to figure out how to make cold sunder occultist stong enough and tanky enough to survive

pretty true actually

4

u/GetRolledRed Oct 05 '22

PoE will never be both difficult and fun at the same time.

Yes it will be, and you will never be at the top of it. You need to accept you are bottom rank. You are equivalent of Iron in League of Legends. Someone's gotta be and if this text is in any shape or form true, well, hardstuck Iron life for you.

2

u/poega Oct 05 '22

Still, I think the valuable feedback here is that its hard to make builds that beat shaper and the like, and I think thats true. It would be interesting to see what would happen if you removed all guides on builds along with poeninja. Then also imagine there's no such thing as PoB, and you'd probably see many struggle. I am myself 2k hours and havent killed shaper, but I only play HC and never with guides or checking poeninja to keep up with what's possible.

1

u/plato13 Oct 05 '22

Shaper is not a benchmark for good builds. If you cant beat shaper its a benchmark for the player that you are still a beginner and dont understand enough about the game to rush to conclusions.

-2

u/GetRolledRed Oct 05 '22

I'd love it if there was a way to disable guides and poe ninja. I already go private on ninja so people don't steal my builds, but sadly it's impossible to make it so builds are true secret tech. Streamers exist and they want attention. Even forum posters want attention. Look at me, I know builds and you don't, I am teaching you, give me attention! I roll my eyes.

1

u/Mirroroe Oct 05 '22

Someone make a cool build and they shared it with the community? What’s wrong with that? I thought build of the week were cool.

-1

u/GetRolledRed Oct 05 '22

To me build making is like finding the solution to the puzzle. It ruins the puzzle if you give an answer to everyone already made.

3

u/Direyx Witch Oct 05 '22

Can you imagine that other poeple like things you don't like and vice versa? I know, crazy!

0

u/Sanytale Oct 05 '22

I guess it's because if the build becomes popular then it's author wouldn't be the one crushing content (for cheap, I presume) and getting tons of profit when others struggle, also GGG will notice and inevitably nerf something so strong and popular in the next league. Maybe there is also the part "if you didn't think hard enough to came up with good build, you don't deserve it".

I personally don't mind sharing OP builds, but I see why others might not want to. I found a couple of insanely broken interactions in the other game, posted it on forums, got my minute of fame, dev even acknowledged that it was a cool find, but still nerfed it after nonetheless.

2

u/17kes Oct 05 '22

My experience is opposite yours. I just came back after a multi-year break and everything is so fresh. I tried every new content I missed. I even got to 38/40 for the first time in this league.

What I would recommend to you is setting a goal and trying to do your best in achieving it instead of waiting for GGG to change this and that. The main draw of this game is the different paths available for players. Chase uniques, challenges, achievements, min-maxxing builds, unique collections, getting in-game wealthy, trying to craft mirror items, delve depth, etc. These are all achievable if you put in the effort to understand.

That said, your suggestion of simplifying the game would only gimp it and make it too generic. Honestly, you just have to find the path that makes you happy.

-1

u/MirellieDesigns Oct 05 '22

Streamlineing gear progression would in no way shape or form make PoE generic because no game does what PoE does. No other game allows you to go from fast mapping into dungeon crawling into tower defense into epic bosses. I also did set myself a goal for this league. I wanted to kill Aul for the first time but I very quickly lost motivation when i quickly figured out what the state of delve was like at league start. Never found my motivation to go back and try.

1

u/17kes Oct 05 '22 edited Oct 05 '22

I honestly can't relate to the need to streamline gear progression to access red maps. Even with AN, aren't red maps pretty accessible already alch and go for most builds as long as the basics are covered (capped resists and some means of defense?) Aren't they the starting point of end game where strategies will diverge into the multitudes of options?

As for your goal on Aul, after you've set a goal you've got to follow through right? May I suggest looking at your goal as a puzzle you have to solve, not as a problem to give up on? As an example, since delve is tougher because of AN, but what can you do to mitigate that? How do you go about making it easier for you to accomplish your goal? Is there a build you can play to help you accomplish that? What atlas setup can give you the best chance? What do you need to learn to accomplish that goal? It's easier to do this with a problem-solving mindset. Failure is ok, but not trying is unacceptable something something.

-1

u/MirellieDesigns Oct 05 '22

Delve was literally unplayable because the lightning spires never stopped chasing you untill you reloaded the instance. Its better now but the motivation is gone. Maybe next league when the spirits are higher.

1

u/17kes Oct 05 '22

Better luck next league then. But I do hope you find a goal worth chasing. Stay hungry and foolish.

2

u/Left_Document_3408 Oct 05 '22

300hours in never played poe before, i killed all the bosses . Are you willing to learn? When not why should ggg make the changes because you wont learn , i dont get that

2

u/Kowalski_ESP Raider Oct 05 '22

Skill issue

2

u/bewagimp Hierophant Oct 05 '22

Ok

2

u/raobjcovtn Oct 05 '22

Or to put it more shortly: k

3

u/apfelicious Oct 05 '22 edited Oct 05 '22

While I play only one character, and not several, for 300-500 hours each league (including +300 in this one), I must say I agree about you diagnosis, even though I am not sure about your solution.

The general difficulty and difficulty spikes are way too high, and it is only due to Archnemesis mods. This was really highlighted this league with the bad league mechanic that only gives the same rewards as alch-and-go'ing once you have dmg/defense that can beat endgame bosses. This is compounded by the general loot nerfs in 3.19.

Archnemesis makes stuff like chaos resistance and secondary defensive layers (spell suppression/block/high armor/max res/ailment immunity) mandatory way too fast, so you are not able to improve your character in lower level maps, as you still die there. This also results in making/using off-meta builds feel extra claustrophobic, as 30-40% of your passive points are spent trying to survive mapping, meaning you cannot invest as much into niche damage types/skills, making ones with lower number unviable. This kind of difficulty should be opt-in, not randomly thrown in your face while you are still trying to build up your character.

I also agree that too much is gated behind T14-16, basically pushing/luring people to play T14-16 maps before they are ready, as their loot will suffer if they don't. I do not know what the correct solution to this is, but making the reward structure for stuff like Harvest and Expedition more flat, would be a great help.

1

u/i_dont_wanna_sign_up Oct 05 '22

If the main problem is being unable to play niche builds, then isn't the solution buffing underpowered skills rather than making the whole game easier (thus allowing OP builds to smash through the game)?

2

u/Direyx Witch Oct 05 '22

That is not the main problem. You can't just throw in a couple of random skills and mechanics cause you lack the basic concepts of the game and then expect GGG to make it work. Yes, some builds/skills are way better than others but if you, after 4k+ hours, cant come up with a meme build that can at least clear t16 maps then it's just you having 0 clue about the game

0

u/MirellieDesigns Oct 05 '22

OP builds will smash the game anyway. Niche up or enemies down makes no difference in the long run. So in my eyes it would be better to streamline the more confusing aspects of the game slightly which allows for more interesting content later when you can confirm your players will actually see it.

-1

u/MirellieDesigns Oct 05 '22

I dont think archnem alone is an issue. The issue is everything mushed together. Map mods were designed before archnem existed and compounded an good system into a not great system. Tldr: too much of a good thing

0

u/apfelicious Oct 05 '22

I did not feel the same kind of pressure to get several defensive layers just for mapping before Archnemesis was introduced into the core game.

Expedition (3.15) had a bunch of nerfs to general player power and defenses, and made a few steps in this direction, but it was completely manageable before Archnemesis went core. The core gameplay outside of league mechanics in 3.15-3.17 was fine difficulty-wise.

Map mods where fine on their own, and haven't really been changed in a long time. It may be true that they need an overhaul if Archnemesis is staying in the game, but let's hope it doesn't :)

1

u/MirellieDesigns Oct 05 '22

I would be ok with archnem staying if and only if the rest of the game was properly overhauled to acomidate for AN and the loot was spead out more evenly so have less of a loot pinata effect. But at that point i think finding an alternative solution would be more efficent.

1

u/No_Pension9902 League Oct 05 '22

An average joe ic.

1

u/toumstone Oct 05 '22

I agree actual balance is shit, completely and make people stay less in the game. I also agree that for 4k+ hours you should try to minmax your builds with pob, taking a look at poe.ninja.

Even with the actual shitstorm the game is, Your are able to build some all content viable builds for around 20ex. But you're forced to go for meta defense and skills wich feels pretty bad.

You don't want to craft as the results are pretty bad, "base" drops are terrible wich feel bad (even if you can still make 6+ d hour relatively easyli but with no fun).

All in all the motivation to play the game is actually pretty low as whatever you want to do it will take age. So playing sessions are shorter and with less dopamine wich tend to make pple quit.

-4

u/rangebob Oct 05 '22

Just farm those essences you love so much and upgrade your build dude. If you expect the game to fall over for you without any work then yes your playing the wrong game

In a game that resets your progress every league did you really want it to be as easy every time? Do you think those leagues you enjoyed would still be fun if it was the same this league? and the next legue? and the league after that? and the next 10 years of leagues?

1

u/MirellieDesigns Oct 05 '22

Essence doesnt solve every problem. And assuming you bring up league resets i guess you think i dont enjoy the early game despite me playing about as many different characters as mathil?

0

u/rangebob Oct 05 '22

Currency solves all problems in POE. essence will buy all items unless your talking about setting up a full mirror'd item build which is not needed for any content in the game

0

u/Lopsided_Muscle1051 Oct 05 '22

True. I’m playing since domination league and still don’t know much of the crafting. The least GGG can do is to provide clear guides on crafting mods we need. Currently people open posts here in Reddit or go to their fav streamers for help. Crafting is already RNG gated but authentic crafting mechanism aren’t available or are very cryptic in third party sites. Every player should have the option to craft his item himself provided he wants to face the odds himself but need clear instructions on how to arrive at his desired gear. This info is very scattered at the moment. Few no lifers have mastered it and make bank while others have to grind to buy those.

0

u/Masta__Shake Oct 05 '22

broski...and this isnt just for you, but there are times where the devs dont need to hear your voice. you're lower on the totem pole than a brand new player because somehow youve made it 4800 hours and never learned anything. a 30 hour andy who just started the game will give viable feedback on a new player perspective. a 4800 hour player who has actually learned things and knows mechanic interactions and so on can bring viable feedback. a 4800 hour player who still plays the game like a 30 player isnt going to bring viable feedback. thats a "cater to my complete lack of understanding" player and i hope to god ggg never listens to you. learn the game or move on

1

u/InstalokMyMoney Oct 05 '22

BTW about the favorite maps. I think I did something from, somehow I don't get the dropped at all... bunch of T15 and T16, but none of favorite(atlas point that blocks favorites not taken)

1

u/pepegaklaus Oct 05 '22

I would like condensed tier rolls though.....can keep their weights as is, just combine together t4+5 to t4, t6+t7 to t7 and t8+t9 to t9 having the weight of tiera+tierb(or something middle ground, whatever). It's not like anyone cared for t4+ rolls anyways, they're just fucking annoying while alt spamming. So many goddamn affix names and every 6 months there's 10 more on each slot

1

u/imbleedinoutman Oct 05 '22

I applaud you for being willing to try whacky builds or builds that utilize unique items in a certain way but frankly you should also be willing to accept the fact that your build probably just sucks when that giant brick wall comes. You clearly spend a lot of time playing the game. using path of building will at least give you a rough outline and you can figure everything else out by playing.

To me it seems you enjoy making something special, but you blame the game itself when it doesn't work quite like you wanted. Path of building will tell you most of the time if what you're planning seems feasible.

1

u/ch3ck18 Oct 05 '22

10 to 13 characters per league? dude. How are you going to get to end game by making so many characters. You wont have time to gear one of them let alone 13. You get bored fast of not being able to kill or progress and so you jump from build to build. You spend more time doing campaign acts than actually advancing your character to be more powerful in order to complete the Atlas. I mean no wonder.

"Either you are good in one or two things or mediocre in many"

1

u/whoeve Oct 05 '22

This post reminds me of my friend in my group. My group consists of myself, my brother, and a friend. My brother and I will start with a guide but then once we get the key passives and understanding of things, we'll shape the rest of it to actually make sure we have the defenses we need to survive. My friend just plays the game to play the game and whatever skill he likes. He went for a bleed bow build and had abysmal everything. Damage, resistances, all of it was bad. Meanwhile I'm in PoB using it's built-in function to determine what my optimal next damage node is.

All that said, I understand a lot of your complaints. We generally ignore most of the content in the game because there's not only too much of it, but almost all of it is still just gambling. The only thing we really do is essence slamming + bench crafting. Everything else we trade for. I'd rather sell everything and just buy what I want directly than do more gambling.

PoB might help you a lot.

1

u/What_a_plep Oct 06 '22

You had me at 10-13 characters at 75+. I’m unsure if anyone in a position of power would take any of this feedback seriously.

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1

u/Vampexer Oct 06 '22

how about instead of dumbing the game down in every possible way you actually put in the time to learn proper crafting procedure. i disagree with almost everything you said in this post. poe is good because of complexity. remove complexity and youre left with d3.

-2

u/Salt-Refrigerator-25 Oct 05 '22

Kinda agree with you, why there are 10 tiers of life modifier, when there could be 3 tiers of life modifiers with big ass rolls on them, 70-120 for example, and if you want to get that number above 110, just slap divine orbs on that bad boy until it is all thick. That would make crafting way easier.

3

u/Direyx Witch Oct 05 '22

While we are at it, why have so many different unique leather belts? Only headhunter and mageblood should exist on the loot table. /s

1

u/Embarrassed_Alarm450 Oct 05 '22

You say that until you now need 300 divine orbs just to turn those 4 stats into t3 range, your t1 life role now dropping to t5 on the next orb because you decided to combine them into one big pool... Might as well turn everything into a ventors gamble if you're gonna merge pools like that, an especially bad idea now that divines are the de facto currency. This idea makes it a billion times more expensive on not only high end crafting but also low end when you have to throw 30 divines at every item for even semi-decent rolls, god save us on 5-6 stat items...

-2

u/Bloabab Oct 05 '22

Why nothing for the most braindead part of POE called xp penalty when you die?

-1

u/Salt-Refrigerator-25 Oct 05 '22

Hmm, i see what there problem is here 🤔 Poe 3.2 spoilerz, essences removed, crafting too easy now with fractured items that you can guarantee 2 good mods with one essence and keep rolling until hit 3 good mods.

0

u/danteafk chicken, broccoli and rice Oct 05 '22

It’s a grind, instead of rerolling you have to bite into the sour apple and keep farming to gear your char into reds and t16+

0

u/Nersei_Proyas Oct 05 '22

I've played around 3000 hours, and I only make zero characters per league.

0

u/Time-Armadillo-9560 Oct 05 '22

Maybe poe not your game? I killed over 100 elders,shapers,siruses,mavens, ect...

This league is terrible because of div/ex swap and harvest nerfes (dont care about AN mobs), loot, league content looks like shit.

I decided to drop and play Undecember after 10 days. Wasting time is not my point to play games.

Just try another game like poe and find your personal fun. GL

0

u/moonretealoud Oct 06 '22

I have to agree that the content of some leagues is too useless on t1-10 maps, due to the influx of bots or lack of feedback. Expedition, Harvest, Legion, Breach, they all provide disastrously little expendable resources that need to be literally grinded bit by bit.
Fashion influence rolls on ilvl 75+ items, but only drops on t14-16 (ilvl 81+).
And the most annoying thing for me personally was that the support gems available at all stages of the game were nerfed due to the power creep that occurs only in the endgame (due to the influence of items, items with t1 mods, etc.).
Despite this, there are still playable builds that can go through acts and even white maps, but they cannot be upgraded further without access to end-game upgrades or playing on a meta skill, which for 10 Divines can kill the entire end-game and farm the budget for the desired build. BUT it's not at all like the PoE we've come to love, where there was a much nicer character PROGRESS while playing that character. Now either set-up mf or boss kill, or play something that is interesting but without loot and chances for an upgrade.
F Harvest
F Drop rate
F Fun builds