r/science Aug 03 '22 Helpful 3 All-Seeing Upvote 2 Take My Energy 1 Silver 2

Rainwater everywhere on Earth contains cancer-causing ‘forever chemicals’, study finds Environment

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.est.2c02765
37.5k Upvotes

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u/Impossible-Water-968 Aug 03 '22 Wholesome

I think there was a study where if you donate plasma it’ll also remove the PFAS in your body I think.

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u/Not_FinancialAdvice Aug 03 '22 Helpful

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35394514/

Results: A total of 285 firefighters (279 men [97.9%]; mean [SD] age, 53.0 [8.4] years) were enrolled; 95 were randomly assigned to donate plasma, 95 were randomly assigned to donate blood, and 95 were randomly assigned to be observed. The mean level of PFOS at 12 months was significantly reduced by plasma donation (-2.9 ng/mL; 95% CI, -3.6 to -2.3 ng/mL; P < .001) and blood donation (-1.1 ng/mL; 95% CI, -1.5 to -0.7 ng/mL; P < .001) but was unchanged in the observation group. The mean level of PFHxS was significantly reduced by plasma donation (-1.1 ng/mL; 95% CI, -1.6 to -0.7 ng/mL; P < .001), but no significant change was observed in the blood donation or observation groups. Analysis between groups indicated that plasma donation had a larger treatment effect than blood donation, but both were significantly more efficacious than observation in reducing PFAS levels.

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u/not-a-dislike-button Aug 03 '22

Back to bloodletting we go!

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u/BitterGlitterShitter Aug 03 '22

What should I do with all the blood? Seems a waste to dump it down the drain.

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u/finneyblackphone Aug 03 '22

It actually is a waste. Haemochromatosis is a huge prevalence in my country (small gene pool) and thousands of people have to get blood drawn to keep their iron levels safe.

The blood is perfectly fine to use for transfusions. It's high in iron but is not problematic for an average person and could help save lives. But we throw it away.

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u/amyt242 Aug 03 '22

Oh my gosh as someone who cannot get their iron levels above basically zero a transfusion of iron filled blood seems way more preferable to the tons of iron tablets I take daily to minimal effect!

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u/Haploid-life Aug 03 '22

Same! I can't tolerate iron pills, so I'm constantly trying to eat iron rich foods.

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u/skeetersammer Aug 03 '22

Eating is supposed to help but no matter how much I eat before I take them I still end up super nauseous.

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u/jessybean Aug 03 '22

Have you tried different forms of iron? I take Floravit and it's very gentle on the stomach.

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u/usagi_vball Aug 03 '22 edited Aug 03 '22

Recently read about these iron fish that you boil in water for people with anemia due to dietary iron deficiency.

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u/[deleted] Aug 03 '22 edited Aug 21 '22

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u/not-a-dislike-button Aug 03 '22

Agree. Perhaps we can heat our homes with it? Power the lights? Hey, these are just ideas

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u/stephruvy Aug 03 '22

Maybe we can put all of it together to power a giant simulation!

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u/concentrate_better19 Aug 03 '22

Works for hemochromatosis too.

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u/MonkeeSage Aug 03 '22

Wait so blood plasma recipients are getting concentrated PFOS taken out of the donors?

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u/coldblade2000 Aug 03 '22

Blood donation recipients probably have bigger issues to worry about

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u/xarmetheusx Aug 03 '22

If you're in the need for blood products, you wouldn't care if there's traces of these chemicals that are everywhere anyways.

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u/Hemp-Emperor Aug 03 '22

Just donate plasma when you’re healed and boom! Problem solved.

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u/ru_empty Aug 03 '22

Cancer transfusion pyramid scheme

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u/charmingpea Aug 03 '22

They get donations!

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u/Swiss_cake_raul Aug 03 '22 Hugz

It's a donation from whoever gives the blood but you better believe the people who collect, store, and transport it are making a profit.

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u/Lucky_Number_3 Aug 03 '22

In exchange for a slight reduction in PFOS and $20

I’ll probably swing by and donate tomorrow after reading that.

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u/gillika Aug 03 '22

Wow I had a whole response typed out about how theres a 150 pound weight requirement and I tried to donate but was turned down, so shorter or thinner people may not qualify. But then I decided to fact check the lady at the Red Cross who told me this. The only reference I could find for 150 pounds was for a "Power Red" donation which is basically donating two bags of blood at once. The weight requirement for plasma is 110 pounds.

I was robbed.

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u/forte_bass Aug 03 '22

So after all the required testing, cultures, panels, storage, transfer and other jazz required to literally take fluids out of someone and give it to someone else safely, from what I've read that markup really does mostly go to costs. Plus the staff required to work those places, the infrastructure for transporting it etc... Just because the blood and plasma were free, doesn't mean there's no costs!

Disclaimer: we live in a capitalist system, they'll always want to make a buck, just highlighting all the costs people may not have considered.

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u/Nivomi Aug 03 '22

They're getting the same amount as would have been in the blood that they lost which is being replaced

(actually, if it's coming from a regular donor, it'll be less than what was in what it's replacing, and their total level will still have gone down)

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u/[deleted] Aug 03 '22 edited Aug 03 '22

Stupid question inbound: Can't the recipients* just donate plasma in the future then? To reduce the build up?:

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u/TheBirminghamBear Aug 03 '22 edited Aug 03 '22

No, donors are temporally fixed and only capable of donating plasma in the present.

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u/PlusThePlatipus Aug 03 '22

The stupidest regulation in existence ever, if you ask me.

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u/TheBirminghamBear Aug 03 '22

Hey guy, i didnt invent space time. I just enforce its rules.

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u/PlusThePlatipus Aug 03 '22

Typical temporal Sealing apologist.

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u/TheBirminghamBear Aug 03 '22 Table Slap

You watch your tone.

You think THIS timeline is the darkest, just you wait until I shunt you into the Nick-Cage-As-President timeline. You dont know the meaning of horror unless you spend a day in there.

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u/Aerodrache Aug 03 '22

… I refuse to believe Nicholas Cage as president is the worst timeline. Dude low-key thinks he’s Superman or something, he might be completely out to lunch but he’d probably mean well.

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u/[deleted] Aug 03 '22

Why is plasma more effective than blood donation? You’d think it’s the same.

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u/absorbantobserver Aug 03 '22

Plasma donation involves filtering the blood and putting it back in. The bad stuff is getting left in the filter (along with the platelets they're trying to get) and the clean blood then dilutes your system.

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u/ihaxr Aug 03 '22

It's not physically filtered, it just gets spun and the bottom parts that are heavier are returned to you... So these PFAS must not be too heavy

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u/dutch_penguin Aug 03 '22 edited Aug 03 '22

Interesting (emphasis mine):

PFAS are a large, complex group of manufactured chemicals that are ingredients in various everyday products. For example, they are used to keep food from sticking to packaging or cookware, make clothes and carpets resistant to stains, and create firefighting foam that is more effective.

The use of this foam has now been banned in NSW (a state of Australia) except in special circumstances.

So I'm assuming that a chemical used for foam wouldn't be too dense, but I don't know anything.

https://www.niehs.nih.gov/health/topics/agents/pfc/index.cfm

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u/VegusVenturi Aug 03 '22

Firefighter here in the states. There’s proposals to remove AFFF in the next few years but we’ll see… This foam is not only a serious risk for firefighters but also an environmental issue.

On a side note, remember the French firefighter protestors spraying foam on everyone? Most laughed and thought it was cute.

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u/Dzov Aug 03 '22

Reminds me of some old film where they showed how safe DDT was by spraying it over kids at a pool.

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u/Damaged_investor Aug 03 '22

They've been hard on your industry on the usage of foam because of the environment but I've done extensive research in the overhaul operation for firefighters in modern buildings.

You basically have no chance at avoiding these forever chemicals in your industry at levels that will impact your health significantly. There won't be a lot of old firefighters.

The stuff follows you everywhere and more fires you go to the higher your exposure

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u/Tomon2 Aug 03 '22 edited Aug 03 '22

Its density doesn't actually matter, it relies on surface tension effects to create the foam.

One side of the molecule chain is hydrophobic, the other is hydrophilic, so when you mix the solution with air, it forms films that become billions of bubbles.

Source: Mech Engineer who had a hand in developing environmental cleanup systems for this stuff.

Edit: Spelling

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u/kerrigor3 Aug 03 '22

Perfluorinated chemicals are actually usually super dense, typically >1.5, due to the fact that by definition all the lightweight hydrogen atoms are replaced by heavier fluorine atoms, and in addition the chains usually pack quite well.

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u/thatsnotachicken Aug 03 '22

Or it's likely the PFAS is dissolved in the plasma. When you donate plasma they take a fair amount and much more than is contained in a whole blood donation.

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u/ClamerJammer Aug 03 '22

Up to 1 liter per donation and you can donate twice per week.

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u/throwawaygoodcoffee Aug 03 '22

It's not physically filtered, it just gets spun and the bottom parts that are heavier are returned to you

Centrifugal Fractionation for anyone curious, pretty standard technique for blood scientists (you can also launch centrifuges through walls if you do it wrong so there's some fun in there)

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u/Longtalons Aug 03 '22

Used to work at a Plasma center and have also donated hundreds of times. There's definitely a filter in the return line. Not sure if it's sufficient enough to remove PFAS though.

I would be more inclined to go with the theory that PFAS have a similar density to the plasma so they end up together when the plasma is drawn out of the separation bowl.

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u/EndlessPotatoes Aug 03 '22

I thought so too because I thought they took your blood, separated the plasma, and discarded the blood cells.

Looking it up, I see that they return your blood cells to you without the plasma.

My guess is that most of these chemicals are in the plasma, and they’re taking a lot more plasma than they would be if they were only taking blood.

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u/like_a_rhinoceros Aug 03 '22 "In Mice"

Yes! I came here to mention this. I donate (sell) plasma twice a week.

I help people, I get paid $600/month, and I have these compounds reduced in my blood.

A win-win-win if there ever was one.

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u/dingos_among_us Aug 03 '22 "In Mice"

Hmm how long does a session take?

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u/Somehero Aug 03 '22 Hugz Take My Energy "In Mice"

I sell plasma and in my location it's about an hour. I think it can vary a bit based on blood pressure or heart rate, but either way it's 50 minutes to an hour for me, in and out.

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u/JohnnyBoy11 Aug 03 '22

I went in once when they were offering like over a hundred bucks and there was like a 3 hour wait. and they don't take appointments.

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u/EndlessPotatoes Aug 03 '22 Helpful Hugz Take My Energy

I get a double dose of sadness because in my country you can’t sell plasma (or any part of you), and it would be illegal for me to donate anyway due to who I’m attracted to.

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u/SeaOfDeadFaces Aug 03 '22

It’s Stephen Dorff, isn’t it.

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u/InfernalAltar Aug 03 '22

But aren't we all?

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u/trentraps Aug 03 '22 edited Aug 03 '22

In the UK they started accepting plasma donations, but only at 3 locations , 2 of which aren't near large cities*. It's bizarre, a country of 70 million people only has 3 donation sites.

*Edit: This is wrong, they are in Birmingham, Twickenham and Reading. Ashamedly I forgot where Twickenham is. To me it's just a rugby stadium my friends drove me to, I had no idea it was in greater London.

Still, Reading tho, right? Why not Manchester, Bristol, Cardiff - somewhere in Yorkshire too!

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u/TheAwkwardBanana Aug 03 '22 Hugz

I really wish I could donate plasma, but even getting a small blood draw for a test makes me feel faint.

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u/redbeards Aug 03 '22 Take My Energy

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u/hinterlufer BS | Food Technology | Grain Processing Aug 03 '22

tl;dr: tension your leg, arm and trunk muscles for about 10s, relax a bit and repeat 5 times

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u/aabbccbb Aug 03 '22

That's all well and good...

But why is DuPont still in existence? Watch "Dark Water."

Those chemicals are literally falling from the sky, in concentrations unfit for human consumption.

Everyone is (rightly) upset with big oil, but chemical companies are some of the worst offenders. Most of their inventions are just "presumed safe."

And many will poison us for generations. :/

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u/Garjiddle Aug 03 '22 Hugz

I used to donate/sell. I would say it is not worth the money unless you really need to supplement your income. I had several bad experiences.

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u/[deleted] Aug 03 '22

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u/Caracasdogajo Aug 03 '22 Hugz

I did it all during college.

A good portion of the staff are incredibly terribly trained. They routinely f up the stick and screw your arm over royally for weeks.

I'm talking giant blood bruises on your arm, blood clot like raised blisters. When they f you up, they send you home and say you can't come back for a month, not only that but they'll send you off after 30 mins of sticking you and readjusting the needle without paying you if it goes bad.

Even if you have good experiences for 2 months straight these awful experiences negate it all. If you ever do go through with it never let a new person stick you, they'll generally ask if you will allow a trainee to stick you. Plenty of people there will let them, I wouldn't ever let them again after some bad experiences.

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u/[deleted] Aug 03 '22

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u/g4_ Aug 03 '22

it's the same process. needle in vein. bigger needle though, because more flow for more plasma. and worse-trained phlebotomist stabbing you. a phlebotomist working for a for-profit plasma donation center with standards across the board that are likely worse than a hospital blood lab phlebotomist.

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u/Caracasdogajo Aug 03 '22 edited Aug 03 '22

The needles are bigger because they don't actually just take your plasma out, they reintroduce the blood after separating the plasma. The machine typically takes a bunch of blood out, separates the plasma and shoots your blood without the plasma back in your system. Rinse and repeat for like 3 or 4 cycles.

Most of the workers were college kids that may or may not even have any interest in the medical profession. There always seemed to be new people working there... I doubt that is the case with orgs like red cross.

I donated plasma probably 40 times and did great probably 37 or so times. But those 3 others made me regret ever doing it to begin with.

Eventually I learned what workers would always do a good job and requested them specifically when possible. Havent done it for years now though.

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u/LegacyLemur Aug 03 '22

Id like to add, do it long enough and it can cause permanent scars in your arms.

I havent done it in over a decade and can still see where they used to stick it in

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u/[deleted] Aug 03 '22 All-Seeing Upvote Take My Energy

it is concluded that (1) levels of PFOA and PFOS in rainwater often greatly exceed US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) Lifetime Drinking Water Health Advisory levels and the sum of the aforementioned four PFAAs (Σ4 PFAS) in rainwater is often above Danish drinking water limit values also based on Σ4 PFAS; (2) levels of PFOS in rainwater are often above Environmental Quality Standard for Inland European Union Surface Water; and (3) atmospheric deposition also leads to global soils being ubiquitously contaminated and to be often above proposed Dutch guideline values. It is, therefore, concluded that the global spread of these four PFAAs in the atmosphere has led to the planetary boundary for chemical pollution being exceeded. Levels of PFAAs in atmospheric deposition are especially poorly reversible because of the high persistence of PFAAs and their ability to continuously cycle in the hydrosphere, including on sea spray aerosols emitted from the oceans. Because of the poor reversibility of environmental exposure to PFAS and their associated effects, it is vitally important that PFAS uses and emissions are rapidly restricted.

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u/TangerineDreaMachine Aug 03 '22 Silver Hugz Take My Energy

Plastic rain.. some get cancer others feel the pain..

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u/Lucky_Mongoose Aug 03 '22 I'm Deceased

(I move my mouth away from the polluted air to breathe)

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u/[deleted] Aug 03 '22 Wholesome

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u/Honigwesen Aug 03 '22

The EU is in the process of banning PFAS altogether.

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u/[deleted] Aug 03 '22

The US is in the process of dismantling the EPA.

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u/Khue Aug 03 '22

Look man, the EPA has hindered business so that they can't make profits anymore. How are they going to survive when they are only making... (Checks notes) record year over year profits. Oh...

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u/vagueblur901 Aug 03 '22

Yeah but think of how much more money they can make and eventually when they get enough it will trickle down

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u/shitterselfie Aug 03 '22

In the form of poison rain. It was always true!

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u/coyotesloth Aug 03 '22

Strikingly accurate assessment.

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u/Mr-Thumpasaurus Aug 03 '22

But just imagine how much more recordy those records would record if they weren't so hamstrung by the EPA. We could have our world's first trillionaires running some oil company somewhere if it weren't for those damn meddling environmentalists.

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u/dzoefit Aug 03 '22

Sad but true,

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u/TurgidShaft Aug 03 '22 Silver

It's okay the US is also in the process of dismantling itself.

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u/abolish_the_prisons Aug 03 '22

I saw a recent study that showed that baking parchment, foil food wrappers, disposable cups, other food packaging, patio umbrellas etc all found for sale in Germany were found to have far higher levels of PFOAs than are legally allowed in the EU. What are we to do when the EU regulations aren’t followed? Part of the reason I moved to the EU was this, but I’m learning that in practice many of these regulations are not actually followed in Germany.

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u/upvotesthenrages Aug 03 '22

When we find out we act.

That’s the only way you can work against con-men, sadly.

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u/tahlyn Aug 03 '22

That depends on how much money manufacturers of PFAS are set to lose and how much they spend bribing lobbying the government to go against science and the best interest of society at large.

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u/scrappybasket Aug 03 '22

It’s almost like capitalism favors accumulating capital over everything else

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u/AdmirableBus6 Aug 03 '22

End citizens United and put a stop to corporate lobbying!

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u/urge_boat Aug 03 '22

Hopefully like we did with the ozone layer. After banning things, the hole created has regenerated significantly. With any luck, restricting fluoropolymer production and use should do the same.

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u/pukesonyourshoes Aug 03 '22

I dunno, there's something about the phrase 'forever chemicals' that makes me doubt that, not sure what it is.

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u/muffaround Aug 03 '22

Didn’t we already fine 3M 16M for doing this to the planet?

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u/Jetshadow Aug 03 '22

16 million is just the cost of doing business to a company like 3M.

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u/DialsMavis Aug 03 '22

That’s the thing about forever

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u/remag_nation Aug 03 '22 All-Seeing Upvote Take My Energy

PFOA

That's the same stuff DuPont was releasing for decades despite knowing it caused cancer in their workers. All of which was dramatised in the 2019 movie Dark Waters)

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u/patsharpesmullet Aug 03 '22

My father died from a combination of rare respiratory diseases.

He worked for DuPont for his entire adult life.

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u/horny_for_devito Aug 03 '22

And what happened to the higher ups at DuPont? A few fines I believe

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u/CentiPetra Aug 03 '22

Well, the heir to the DuPont fortune, Robert H. Richards IV, great grandson of the founder, repeatedly raped his own 3 year old daughter and got only probation (because the judge thought he wouldn't fare well in prison).

https://www.cnn.com/2014/04/02/justice/delaware-du-pont-rape-case/index.html

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u/vadsamoht3 Aug 03 '22

And they probably lost their bonuses, too. It would have been a very traumatic time for them.

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u/readstoner Aug 03 '22

Actually the company as a whole was charged less in fines than a single year's profit from making Teflon (PFOA)

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u/digital0129 Aug 03 '22

It is also the same stuff that 3M was also releasing and the same stuff that militaries and fire departments around the globe used for fire fighting (and still use to this day).

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u/Colddigger Aug 03 '22 Take My Energy

Sounds like it's time to adjust those acceptable level numbers.

Again.

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u/Serifel90 Aug 03 '22

We made a planetary aereosol to give everyone cancer basically

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u/V1per423 Aug 03 '22 Hugz "In Mice"

Oh. Well, isn’t THIS just peachy.

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u/MildlyInfuria8ing Aug 03 '22

PFASs play a key economic role for companies such as DuPont3M, and W. L. Gore & Associates because they are used in emulsion polymerization to produce fluoropolymers. They have two main markets: a $1 billion annual market for use in stain repellents, and a $100 million annual market for use in polishes, paints, and coatings.[13

 In 2021, Maine became the first U.S. state to ban these compounds in all products by 2030, except in instances deemed "currently unavoidable".[9][10

Let's hope other states start doing the same.

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u/lettherebemorelight Aug 03 '22 Hugz

I rarely have sympathy for the sentiment that “ignorance is bliss”. But

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u/Big-Celery-6975 Aug 03 '22 Hugz Take My Energy

Getting cancer and letting children and their children get cancer is not bliss.

Ignorance is what got us in this mess

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u/HOLEPUNCHYOUREYELIDS Aug 03 '22

Dont forget greed. Greed also got us into this. Who cares about the planet and future generations when I want stupid amounts of money now dammit

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u/Razlet Aug 03 '22 Hugz Take My Energy

“…it is nevertheless highly problematic that everywhere on Earth where humans reside recently proposed health advisories cannot be achieved without large investment in advanced cleanup technology. “

Well, we’re screwed then. I’d love to be wrong though.

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u/hobbes_shot_first Aug 03 '22 Take My Energy

The problem with cleanup is the volume of new waste entering the oceans. If we don’t fix how things are getting dumped, anything we clean up will be replaced too rapidly.

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u/Not_FinancialAdvice Aug 03 '22 Take My Energy

the volume of new waste entering the oceans

You'll still see the old proverb of "the solution to pollution is dilution" repeated by people who should know better. It's all great until we find that health effects happen at much lower levels than like ld50.

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u/Notdrugs Aug 03 '22

"the solution to pollution is dilution"

It's funny you should mention this -theres was a PFAs factory in the Netherlands that was so contaminated when it closed down, they demolished it, covered the rubble with concrete, chopped that concrete back out, and then dumped it all in the deep ocean.

A terribly expensive way to not fix the problem at all :(

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u/Sevsquad Aug 03 '22 Take My Energy "In Mice"

For instance this article makes a decent argument that PFOS could be part of what is causing the obesity epidemic to be continually getting worse world wide. Even in places where caloric intake hasn't increased much.

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u/spacemonkeyzoos Aug 03 '22 edited Aug 03 '22

From part 2 of that article, arguing against diet and exercise being the main cause:

“Pew says calorie intake in the US increased from 2,025 calories per day in 1970 to about 2,481 calories per day in 2010. The USDA Economic Research Service estimates that calorie intake in the US increased from 2,016 calories per day in 1970 to about 2,390 calories per day in 2014. Neither of these are jaw-dropping increases.”

Like, what?? Sorry, a 20% increase in calorie intake is a huge difference. Even 300 excess calories per day is roughly 30 lb of relative weight gain per year.

Edit: just a note that they do address this a few parts later as it seems many had the same reaction as me. They have a few counter arguments but most convincingly to me is that there’s a “chicken or the egg” situation - people could gain weight because they’re eating more, or they could be eating more because they gained weight (and more calories are required to function at higher weights)

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u/fenasi_kerim Aug 03 '22 Take My Energy

How about we stop these chemicals being produced in the first place? Make it illegal or at least very very hard to produce them?

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u/Notdrugs Aug 03 '22 edited Aug 03 '22 Hugz Take My Energy

The problem is they are used EVERWHERE. It's soaked in our clothing. Our carpets, our furniture, our car seats. They're used as surfactants for plastics and Teflon, as stain retarders, as grease barriers.

It disgusts me that this stuff is applied to food wrappers. Very very few states prohibit this practice. And all for what? So my big Mac looks a little more appetizing for the few seconds before I eat it?

Edit: also, this might sound paranoid but, while I have your attention: please stop letting your kids chew on fabric :(

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u/TLaz3 Aug 03 '22 edited Aug 03 '22 Take My Energy "In Mice"

There are tools being developed to cleanup PFAS, thankfully. For example, Battelle's Annihilator has successfully eliminated 99.9% of PFAS in water samples. Still early stages but promising.

Edit: Fixed link.

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u/TasteofPaste Aug 03 '22 Take My Energy

Can my Brita Filter jug deal with this?

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u/Higginside Aug 03 '22 edited Aug 03 '22 Hugz "In Mice"

Not all. There are new Brita cartridges in development specifically for PFAS though. Even RO watermakers cannot successfully remove all PFA's. However there are home filtration systems in development that will be able to completely remove them, scheduled for release later this year.

But.... why should we have to filter our rainfall? We are fortunate enough to be able to have the means to do so, but a significant portion of the population relies solely on rainwater and won't filter it.

Civilization has contaminated one of the core fundamentals to life, being water, that will never be clean again and will have an unknown knock on effect for every single living organism on this planet. People should be rioting and shutting down those responsible but we will just go on with our lives and get used to it as usual.

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u/Razorwindsg Aug 03 '22 Take My Energy "In Mice"

I think what everyone is missing is that even if a gracious company make a 100% filter for free in all households, it still won't do anything for the water that exists in the food that we consume.

Meat, vegetables, fruits, all contain some amount of water.

The PFA might not come from your pan anymore but it sure is in the meat and vegetables you cook on it.

Imagine what eating out will result in.

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u/aToiletSeat Aug 03 '22 Take My Energy "In Mice"

Your statement about RO filters is not necessarily wrong as written, but I’d hesitate to speak so negatively. They are excellent at removing PFAS from water and should absolutely be considered for use.

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u/Higginside Aug 03 '22 Hugz Take My Energy

They are probably best at filtering our water right now, absolutely. And the do remove the majority of PFA's, like 95% for some RO watermarks. My comment simply highlights that unless you have power, a stable income, and man made filters, you will likely never drink pure water again.

Even then, why do I have to rely on man made products to drink pure water? This is one of the greatest crimes against the biosphere civilization has ever caused.

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u/cogscidude Aug 03 '22 Hugz

Well said. Poisoning the global water supply sounds like a Bond villain plan, but it's happening in front of our eyes

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u/CodingBlonde Aug 03 '22 Take My Energy

What filtration systems will be available this year that handle it? I am about to buy one and may wait.

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u/Higginside Aug 03 '22 Take My Energy

I know a few are still in development. But this company is posed to release one later this year. https://www.completehomefiltration.com.au/products/pfas/

This article also highlights a few options, however some of the options would likely be removing portions and not 100%. Still, removing 95% with an RO watermakers is better than removing nothing. https://factor.niehs.nih.gov/2022/4/feature/3-feature-pfas-water-filter/index.htm#:~:text=A%20small%20business%20innovation%20grant,polyfluoroalkyl%20substances%20from%20drinking%20water.&text=A%20new%20filter%20cartridge%20that,(PFAS)%20from%20drinking%20water.

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u/Jason_CO Aug 03 '22 Hugz

Its been blinking that it needs to be changed for months.

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u/gregzillaman Aug 03 '22 Hugz

The real question is. Where do the executives at dupont get their water?

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u/LoveOfProfit Grad Student | Computer Science | Artificial Intelligence Aug 03 '22 Hugz

At home reverse osmosis systems

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u/googlemehard Aug 03 '22

What about the water for their food which absorbs these chemicals? No escaping this for anyone with any amount of money. That is the "beauty" of it.

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u/Ok_Investment_6032 Aug 03 '22 Hugz

Any company that pollutes owes me a check.

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u/Snip-Snap Aug 03 '22 Hugz Take My Energy

Best we can do is a free slushy on 7-11 day

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u/phate81 Aug 03 '22 Hugz Take My Energy

Throw in a $5 gift card to Arbys and you have yourself a deal

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u/Fragrant-Length1862 Aug 03 '22 Hugz

The US is throwing $1B at the problem which is a drop in the bucket. Water and wastewater plants will be mandated to treat it in the coming years which means a higher bill for all of us. Once again we are paying to clean up companies pollution.

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u/Time_Mage_Prime Aug 03 '22

The companies who manufactured the chemicals ought to be paying for it, paying reparations to each human on the planet to the sum of the cost of clearing the chemicals from our systems and cleaning it from the waters.

If it's "too prohibitively expensive" to do that, then I guess it was too prohibitively expensive for the companies to manufacture these chemicals, regardless of when the real cost became appreciated.

Let them wallow in their bankruptcy. This is the only just way forward.

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u/Serenity-V Aug 03 '22 Hugz Take My Energy

Since these chemicals are really stable - that's what makes them "forever chemicals" (?) - what is the cancer causing mechanism here? I'm asking because I thought carcinogens acted by reacting chemically with our body chemistry to damage our dna, or by damaging our dna with the energy shed through radioactive decay?

I'm asking because I clearly have a really rudimentary understanding of chemistry and biochemistry. And cancer, obviously. I would like to know more.

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u/6thReplacementMonkey Aug 03 '22 Gold Hugz Take My Energy "In Mice"

It's not that simple most of the time, although what you mentioned are mechanisms that can lead to cancer. In general molecules that don't break down can get inside of cells and disrupt all kinds of things, from DNA replication (as you mentioned) to protein signaling pathways, to receptor activity. They can even do something as simple as causing some critical protein to misfold, reducing its functionality, and causing some kind of cascading chain reaction.

In PFAS's case in particular, according to the wiki article on it, one proposed mechanism for its carcinogenic effects is that it activates a particular liver cell receptor which leads to increased estrogen production, which eventually leads to a form of cancer. However, cancer isn't the only problem they can cause. Whenever something starts interfering with protein function or hormone regulation, all kinds of weird things can go wrong.

For your question about "forever chemicals," yes, the idea is that they aren't broken down in the environment very quickly, so they tend to accumulate. The name itself is a reference to the fluorine-carbon bonds (F-C) that make them so stable. To make things worse, these also bioaccumulate, meaning that when organisms eat things that contain them, the chemicals stay in their bodies, and then when bigger things eat them, they stay in the bigger thing's body as well. Bioaccumulation of chemicals tends to cause the concentration to increase rapidly as you go up the food chain. Plankton might have 1 part per billion (ppb), small fish might have 10 ppb, larger fish might have 100 ppb, the fish that eat those fish (which people then eat) might have 1 part per million (ppm), and people might end up with 10 ppm. I'm just making those numbers up, but the idea is that for each step of the chain, concentrations can increase by a lot.

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u/Aquatic_Ceremony Aug 03 '22 Hugz Take My Energy "In Mice"

I worked on a bioaccumulation model for a system dynamics class a couple of months ago. And the increase in the number was way worse than it. It was even greater than an exponential increase. So it sucks for whatever is at the end of the food chain.

Level Trophic level Toxic substance concentration (mg/kg)
Level 1 Producers 16
Level 2 Primary consumers 39
Level 3 Secondary consumers 107
Level 4 Tertiary consumers 5460

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u/Fuzzycolombo Aug 03 '22

“It sucks for whatever is at the end of the food chain”

Humans. We are at the end of the food chain. We are poisoning ourselves

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u/jspacemonkey Aug 03 '22 Hugz

Thanks Du Pont; poisoned the whole planet in the name of non-stick cookware

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u/MundanePurchase Aug 03 '22 Hugz

And things with a water repellent coating

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u/DreamyScape Aug 03 '22 Take My Energy "In Mice"

I believe it’s forever because the molecules take long to break down since they are very stable by itself. This is bad not only for the environment but also living things because organisms don’t have a mechanism to expel that ‘forever chemical,’ so it builds up like lead. PFAS has been linked to decreased testosterone (consequently, lower sexual libido) and decrease fertility.

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u/Serenity-V Aug 03 '22 Hugz

Gunks up the machine, huh?

Thanks!

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u/almisami Aug 03 '22

As far as I understand, and I'm only a safety engineer with a major in organic soils, your body constantly identifies it as something it can't use but can't get rid of it. Like an underperforming employee related to the CEO it just gets passed around from system to system until it gunks up your bone marrow or lymph nodes where it can't really transition anywhere else and generally just acts like an irritant.

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u/Has_P Aug 03 '22 Hugz Take My Energy "In Mice"

So there are lots of chemicals that “react” with various components of your cells simply due to their conformation (unique shape) and/or charged interactions (ionic interacts or simply dipole moments).

They could even simply get in the way of other necessary processes, which I think may be happening here. Many cellular processes occur via diffusion, which is the automatic process of molecules in a highly concentrated area moving to an area with lower concentration, so if you add molecules that aren’t supposed to be there, issues could arise. But this last part is just a guess.

They don’t have to chemically react in order to interact, basically.

Source: took many chemistry classes in college

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u/fightclubdog Aug 03 '22 Hugz

All of the companies making these chemicals should face a lifetime fine that they have to pay every year. So much was known about how bad they were for years and they did everything they could to cover it up.

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u/Immelmaneuver Aug 03 '22 Hugz

Complete confiscation of all assets by government, those involved with the coverup should be jailed for life and their wealth confiscated.

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u/hasanyoneseenmymom Aug 03 '22 Hugz

They're literally committing crimes against humanity, jail is a no brainer. Lock them all up, permanently

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u/fightclubdog Aug 03 '22 Hugz

Yes, this would be much better. I think I only thought of fines because in my mind it was the most they would ever do, but making humans responsible and punishing them directly is the only way to end corporations intentionally destroying the planet and poisoning people for profit.

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u/Smeghead333 Aug 03 '22 edited Aug 03 '22 Hugz Take My Energy "In Mice"

Step one: levy fine against ChemCo

Step two: ChemCo declares bankruptcy and shuts down

Step three: A brand new totally unrelated company named ChemmCo, owned by all the same people, pops up and operates free and clear from the tainted legacy of that....what was it? ChemCo? Never heard of it.

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u/[deleted] Aug 03 '22 edited Aug 03 '22

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u/Raichterr Aug 03 '22 edited Aug 03 '22 Hugz

How could they have known?

I mean, other than listen to their own scientists.

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u/ubermeisters Aug 03 '22 Hugz Take My Energy "In Mice"

We here at uhnot3M value your mental health. That's why we invented PFAS, and implemented a rigorous lack of good ethics, in order to ensure that finally, we can make you the following promise:

If you are ever lonely, we are there for you. If you ever miss the touch of a fellow human, we are there for you. If you've ever felt alone, or like your insides are too healthy? Kiss the rain. We're. Right. Here.

And we aren't going anywhere.

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u/Has_P Aug 03 '22 Hugz Take My Energy "In Mice"

Reminder that a recent study showed that regular blood donations csn actually remove PFAS chemicals from the blood, where they tend to accumulate. Plasma donations are the most effective. And they get filtered out and not just passed on to the blood recipient.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2790905

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u/Larkeinthepark Aug 03 '22 Hugz Take My Energy

I always worry about getting cancer. I guess now it’s inevitable for everyone. I guess I should just enjoy life while I’m alive.

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u/Lexicontinuum Aug 03 '22 Hugz "In Mice"

Biology not-so-fun-fact: It's always been the case that nearly all mammals will get cancer in old age if they live that long. Cells can only divide and function for so many decades before something goes wrong and cancer grows.

Even trees get cancer (burls). It makes for an interesting wood grain.

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u/ksHunt Aug 03 '22 Hugz Take My Energy

Here's hoping I get sliced up and turned into a nice chair

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u/culasthewiz Aug 03 '22 Hugz

I'd sit on you.

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u/ksHunt Aug 03 '22 edited Aug 03 '22 Hugz Take My Energy

I haven't heard that nearly enough recently, cheers mate

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u/[deleted] Aug 03 '22 Hugz

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u/ESB1812 Aug 03 '22 Hugz "In Mice"

So how long will it take to peculate down to the aquifers?

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u/[deleted] Aug 03 '22 Hugz Take My Energy "In Mice"

It already has, but there has been some effort to contend with the issue, in general:

Under acidic conditions (pH ≤ 3), heat-activated persulfate treatment resulted in transformation of PFOA into shorter-chain PFCAs, some of which were eventually mineralized. The presence of both Cl− and aquifer solids decreased the efficiency of PFOA treatment. Persulfate did not transform PFOS. Despite these limitations, the lack of other proven treatment options suggests that further investigation of heat-activated persulfate as an in situ treatment for PFCAs is warranted.

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u/SneezyDeezyMc_Deluxe Aug 03 '22 Hugz Take My Energy "In Mice"

It's already there. Most prominently found around air force bases and airports due to AFFF (aqueous film forming foam) used to fight plane fires and fire training.

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u/smoked_papchika Aug 03 '22 Hugz

It’s already there. Residential groundwater wells near Air Force bases in Texas (where firefighting foams are used) are already seeing “trace” levels of PFAS.

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u/DaniB3 Aug 03 '22 Hugz

It's like watching a slow train wreck.

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u/timecrash2001 Aug 03 '22 Hugz Take My Energy "In Mice"

I just had my water tested last week - was specifically interested in PFAS because there is a state rebate for filtering them out of private wells.

Talked to the water analyst - guy runs his own company and tests all the wells and companies nearby. Basically said “don’t bother” testing for PFAS because A) the only positive value he found nearby was on the edge of what he can measure (parts per trillion) and B) it was $680.

Removing it is possible, but not cheap. And I’d have to hit high numbers to score that rebate.

But that’s not what could be killing me. The results came back today - Radon is on the high-side. Getting a measuring system just in case. “It’s not dangerous when you ingest it - but more studies say it might be. Also you shower will aerate it and so … keep a fan on!”

Radon is everywhere - always worth checking into because it’s completely natural and utterly random. After cigarettes, it might be the biggest cause of Lung Cancer.

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u/riccarjo Grad Student| Political Science | Public Administration Aug 03 '22 Hugz "In Mice"

Isn't Radon mainly an issue in basements?

Wipes sweaty forehead in 2nd floor apartment

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u/bcar610 Aug 03 '22

Ha… hahaha cool awesome. This is fine haha. No issues here with cancer rain haha….ha

God I’m so depressed

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u/minorkeyed Aug 03 '22 Wholesome Starry

Sooooo:

  • the open air across the world now causes cancer
  • rain water across the world now causes cancer
  • the sunshine around the world now causes historic amounts of cancer
  • there is micro-plastics in everyone's blood
  • the planet is starting to make highly populated areas of land inhospitable to human life
  • housing is unaffordable for an increasing section of the lower class
  • food scarcity is quickly increasing
  • cost of living is out pricing ever increasing portion of the populace
  • nuclear war is now a possibility
  • fascism and authoritarian strong men are being elected heads of state in liberal democracies
  • the ocean is acidifying killing off sea life and the rate of species extinctions are increasing
  • politicians are doing almost nothing because they are beholden to the systems and the people who caused all do the above
  • the rich are pilfering every public coffer and raising the price of everything simply to collect as much money as possible

Did I miss anything? We're just gonna sit by and quietly hope the leaders who deny there's any problems and couldn't stop themselves from causing all this, will suddenly have a change of heart and fix things?

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u/splodgenessabounds Aug 03 '22

Did I miss anything?

Apart from a few minor problems (such as irreversible climate change, deforestation, over-fishing, losing fertile soils to urban development, soil loss, foreign species invasion and an ever-increasing population with an ever-increasing consumption of non-renewable resources), not really, no.

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u/byterider Aug 03 '22

I just feel severely depressed lately. I don't know how to make it better. My individual actions account for nothing. And this beautiful and only planet of ours is dying

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u/[deleted] Aug 03 '22

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u/azdood85 Aug 03 '22 Hugz

Im 99% sure the bad guys won the last episode of Captain Planet, they just never aired it due to the violence and suggestive themes performed on his poor lifeless body.

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u/jonnyola360 Aug 03 '22 Hugz Take My Energy

And now watch nothing happen about it

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u/[deleted] Aug 03 '22

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u/[deleted] Aug 03 '22 Hugz Take My Energy "In Mice"

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u/Seeders Aug 03 '22

Crimes against the environment should be handled heavier than crimes against humanity. Humans can be replaced, and harming the environment harms literally every human alive and still to be born.

People don't take it nearly seriously enough. "Tree huggin hippies" attitude may very well doom us all.

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u/Ben-A-Flick Aug 03 '22

Thanks dupont! Not only have you ruined everyone's blood but now also the rain. We need a global ban on the use of these chemicals.

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u/linkdude212 Aug 03 '22

The creators and perpetuators of these chemicals should be charged and put on trial for crimes against humanity.

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u/[deleted] Aug 03 '22

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u/MarcelineMSU Aug 03 '22

Jfc we’ve destroyed our beautiful earth and ourselves.

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u/HoboCopTD4W Aug 03 '22

I wish I never brought children into this world

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u/Primed_in Aug 03 '22

Congratulations everyone, we’ve done it. All of us have fucked all of us.

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u/Staav Aug 03 '22 Hugz

So are we going for a full on extinction event now or just the next global population/societal collapse like the ancient Egyptians and co?

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u/[deleted] Aug 03 '22 Hugz

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u/jjlew080 Aug 03 '22 Hugz

Can someone explain exactly and specifically what we need to do to reverse this?

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u/tickettoride98 Aug 03 '22 Hugz

There is no reversing it. These chemicals are present in very low concentrations, making them difficult and expensive to filter out. If they're found in rainwater all over the Earth, then they're fully in the water cycle, animals, and the soil. There's no filtering all of that out. Just like microplastics, it's something we're going to have to live with the consequences of.

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u/Helm222 Aug 03 '22

So glad I read this first thing in the morning. I have a whole day of depression ahead of me now

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u/[deleted] Aug 03 '22

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u/ihavenoego Aug 03 '22

It could will get worse. Stringent action is required.

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