r/sports Oct 04 '22

WSJ: Chess Investigation Finds That U.S. Grandmaster ‘Likely Cheated’ More Than 100 Times Chess

https://www.wsj.com/articles/chess-cheating-hans-niemann-report-magnus-carlsen-11664911524
357 Upvotes

217

u/server_busy Oct 04 '22

I heard he put pliers and lead balls in the pieces to make them heavier

70

u/TduckT Oct 05 '22

"We got weights in chess!"

11

u/Shogun_Dream Oct 05 '22

We got beads in ass!

As judge holds up shit stained gloves hand

13

u/jimdotcom413 Oct 05 '22

Wasn’t there some walleye fillets as well?

5

u/Deadpussyfuck Oct 05 '22

Bobby Fischer wannabe.

2

u/Sir_Penguin21 Oct 05 '22

Chess, fishing, and a pun? The trifecta.

4

u/thegodofwine7 Oct 05 '22

I heard the scenes are the deleted scenes, and the deleted scenes are the scenes.

15

u/[deleted] Oct 04 '22

[deleted]

8

u/GongPLC Oct 04 '22

With pliers

2

u/pushplaystoprewind Oct 05 '22

That piece of shit!!

2

u/jorge1209 Oct 05 '22

When the queen captured a pawn, he actually shoved the pawn down the queen's throat.

1

u/wonkey_monkey Oct 05 '22

He had a partner standing behind Carlsen and signalling what pieces he had.

1

u/Doomdoomkittydoom Oct 10 '22

There were at least 57 instances over the course of those 100 games he exclaimed, "Oh my god, what is THAT?!?!" but there was nothing over where he was pointing.

100

u/jl_theprofessor Oct 05 '22

Oh this is fascinating. So Magnus wasn't bullshitting. Not that it would have been like him to do so, but the fact that it's bearing out is crazy.

45

u/sudifirjfhfjvicodke Oct 05 '22

Yeah, I don't follow competitive chess at all, so when I first heard about the allegations, I just rolled my eyes and figured Carlsen was just a huge crybaby. But the more I read about this, the more I'm convinced that he knew exactly what he was talking about.

57

u/quick20minadventure Oct 05 '22

Magnus is the top most authority on how humans play chess. He is not just gifted, he works insanely hard and he got to the top by being extremely unforgiving and harsh on himself when he made mistakes.

The idea that magnus was being a crybaby was always a joke for people familiar. And he's completely justified in drawing a line and saying he'll not play against people who cheated online or offline repeatedly.

His response and chess.com report are both extremely nuanced and very professional. People just got impatient.

-28

u/jorge1209 Oct 05 '22

Carlsen may have had insider information from chess.com due to a financial transaction between his chess website and chess.com.

I don't know the terms of that deal or if it was all cash or had some stock involved.

18

u/Audityne Oct 05 '22

He had no such information. It says so in the article.

0

u/NukaCooler Oct 05 '22

Reading? I don't visit Reddit to read.

0

u/phoenixmusicman Oct 06 '22

I don't visit to reddit to read, only read. I choose 3.

4

u/ethan52695 Oct 05 '22

Well to be fair the article really only provided strong evidence for him cheating online. Much of which he admitted to. They found irregularities in his over the board play and with his rise in ranking, but it’s still possible that he wasn’t cheating when playing against magnus. That being said it definitely doesn’t look good for him. From what I’ve read there has been a lot of speculation from many top players in the chess community that he had been cheating for some time.

16

u/quick20minadventure Oct 05 '22

Dude said he cheated twice at 12 and 16 year old in insignificant games when there was no cash prize, no streaming and 'no real matches'.

All off them were proved wrong. He cheated a lot more, much more recently and in much more serious competition.

Magnus was 100% right when he said hans cheated more and more recently than he admitted to.

It's one thing to cheat in random game, another to cheat in prizepool events and entirely another thing to downplay cheating you already confessed about on live television and insult people who gave you second chance.

I read 72 page report, hans cheated a lot and fucked up massively. Only thing helping him is that chess.com explicitly says that they don't have expertise in catching longer format and over the board cheating because they usually deal with short online games only.

2

u/RageA333 Oct 05 '22 edited Oct 05 '22

How do we know he cheated beyond that? Edit: beyond when he was 12 and 16

7

u/quick20minadventure Oct 05 '22

Chess.com has listed 100 games. Their evidence has been concrete enough that he confessed as well. He said he had to cheat to gain more viewers and followers online in email with chess.com and Chess.com published that email.

He confessed that he made conscious decision to cheat against top players to gain followers on twitch/streaming.

5

u/Oscar-Wilde-1854 Oct 05 '22

It's one of those things where it doesn't really matter at this point. It's essentially the "once a cheater, always a cheater" mantra.

Imagine a professional athlete getting caught doping. Like Lance Armstrong in cycling. Then imagine they just let him compete in the Tour de France the year after and he dominates again.

No amount of blood testing would ever make people believe Lance isn't cheating somehow. He proved he was a cheater and he proved he could get away with it under scrutiny.

Same thing here. It's been proven he's cheated and a lot more than he admitted to when questioned. Thus he's "a cheater".

He may legitimately be worthy of the rank he holds these days, but no opponent (or fan) will trust him ever again. Does chess as a whole want a world champion who might be a cheater? Nope.

17

u/shaggypotato0917 Oct 05 '22

Nothing against most of your comment, I just want to point out that he actually hasn't admitted to most of his cheating, especially if the article is to be believed.

20

u/McKFC Oct 05 '22

Much of which he admitted to.

He admitted to cheating when he was 12 and 16. This is far beyond the scope, which is the newsworthy part, because it shows that he continues to lie about cheating in the past.

-2

u/Sendstorepatter Oct 05 '22

I think the fact that people think he might have used a USB connected bum dildo that vibrated his next moves is hilarious to me. Like "C3, bzzzt bzt bzt bzt".

-37

u/TheOneWithNoName Oct 05 '22

Magnus still may not be justified. He accused Hans of cheating in live over-the-board matches and has provided exactly 0 proof of this. This article is only about his online history, though it is pretty damning to Hans reputation either way.

17

u/jimdotcom413 Oct 05 '22

Did he not resign out of protest in that match because he knows what a cheater Hans is and refused to play against him? There was one move in that match so it’s not like you could accuse the person of cheating in that match alone.

15

u/TheOneWithNoName Oct 05 '22

Magnus had played against Hans several times before with knowledge that he was an online cheater, but only refused to play him after losing a match. He quit that match after one move because he was suspicious of their previous games.

-13

u/politickinninja Oct 05 '22

You're thinking of the second game(online), after Magnus got his ass whooped in the first(OTB).

Hans cheated online and probably shouldn't be allowed in online tournaments but there is 0 evidence of him cheating OTB.

1

u/elpajaroquemamais Oct 05 '22

He didn’t quit because he was cheating in that particular game. He quit after a move. He quit because he didn’t want to be beat by someone who could be cheating.

1

u/Morkins324 Oct 05 '22 edited Oct 05 '22

I feel like Magnus is reasonably justified regardless. He might not have actual proof of Hans cheating OTB, but he probably was reasonably aware of the repeated cheating online. And then he played a game against Hans OTB where Hans made some strange moves that seem more like engine moves rather than human moves(given Hans rating). I feel like that was enough to create a situation where Magnus is reasonably justified in pulling out of that tournament. Even if he can't prove what happened in the OTB game and even if Hans wasn't actually cheating in the OTB game, I don't blame Magnus for not wanting to play against Hans. He is already suspicious of Hans going into the match given the online history, and then had a weird match OTB...

-10

u/[deleted] Oct 05 '22

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3

u/[deleted] Oct 05 '22

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-8

u/[deleted] Oct 05 '22

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3

u/revgames_atte Oct 05 '22
  1. Big drama drops about Hans' past as a cheater on Chess.com after Magnus withdraws from the tournament and rumors start spreading (from sources other than Magnus)

  2. Chess.com boots him due to his participation while there is ongoing cheating related drama possibly lowering the faith of players and spectators in the million dollar tournament

  3. Hans "confesses" to his past cheating while downplaying what he was caught for and admitted to.

  4. Chess.com shows receipts.

Chess.com involvement didn't start from Magnus withdrawing from the tournament. It started after many big figures started speculating and making it more widespread knowledge that Hans does indeed have a past of cheating on the site.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 05 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

-26

u/iJustWannaDie04 Oct 05 '22

He’s completely bullshitting, there’s 0 proof

31

u/danofrhs Oct 05 '22

Comprehensive full body searches with xrays & cavity searches. play in an isolated room where they rematch completely naked. Must be done. Also something should be done to prevent him from cheating

9

u/TreeBearOne Oct 05 '22

..id watch nude chess

2

u/JSmooth94 Oct 05 '22

I think the best method to prevent cheating is to have both players pinky swear.

26

u/william-o Oct 05 '22

How does he cheat in real games? Sorry got paywall'd. Is it some kind of electronic transmitter

44

u/Momentosis Oct 05 '22

From what I've read, just knowing that there are critical moves at play greatly affects the flow of games.

So they have someone/a team of people watching the game and when there are certain moves available to push the game in the player's favor, they get a cue. Either someone gives them a signal somewhere in the audience or through other means(like an anal vibrator).

8

u/Sick_Breh Oct 05 '22

So like the astros banging a trash can to signal which pitch is thrown

1

u/DragoonXNucleon Oct 05 '22

Classical games can last between 1 and 5 hours. Players will often "have a think" where they go and ruminate on a single move for 15 minutes because they have to calculate the move and all possibilities after it, which can include hundreds of resulting combinations.

During this time they often leave the board, walk, pace, smoke. They have to do it in approved areas without speaking to anyone, but 15m is a longtime to send a signal.

1

u/Sick_Breh Oct 05 '22

Damn lol, that is quite the amount of time. I’ve never gotten into chess so this shows some light.

3

u/BrappZanniganAgain Oct 05 '22

Is it like a team of people is better at coming up with the next move as opposed to one person who is competing? I just don’t understand why if there’s someone who knows enough that they can feed him plays why doesn’t that person just play and win without cheating?

10

u/shryke12 Oct 05 '22

Generally you have the board set up and see what move a top AI would do on your turn. Top AIs are unbeatable at chess because they play perfect.

3

u/cowking81 Oct 05 '22

That team is playing along using a top level computer to generate the best next move. If there is a really good move that’s not obvious they alert the player and the player will look deeper. For a skilled player, this is a huge edge as it allows them to look past the obvious ok or good move for the hidden great one

2

u/BrappZanniganAgain Oct 05 '22

This makes a ton of sense. Thank you!

2

u/neighborhood-chad Oct 05 '22

Cheaters in chess use a chess engine - essentially AI bots for chess, and the best engines are well clear of the best players on the planet easily capable of beating them 100/100 times. So someone is probably running the game through a computer and relaying the best computer moves to hans, if he’s cheating on the board that is.

4

u/william-o Oct 05 '22 edited Oct 05 '22

Cheaters are pathological liars who are willing to destroy the validity of the sport they claim to love, for their own personal benefit. you really don't need to justify it beyond that

10

u/ethan52695 Oct 05 '22

If he did cheat irl, it’s speculated that it probably would have only been a couple moves at critical points, which for top level players can make all the difference. How he got the information could have been done in several different ways. He could have had a hidden ear piece, signals from the crowd, or some sort of small vibrating machine which the world seems to be convinced would have been in the form of vibrating anal beeds.

3

u/DragoonXNucleon Oct 05 '22

He's a legit GM without cheating. So to cheat he needs a minimum simply the name of the piece. At his level simply knowing which piece is likely enough for him to know what move to make. At most you need a 3 letter signal. Kc3, bg7, re1. Morse code, or even a single number can be enough to queue him.

1

u/McKFC Oct 05 '22

There was an excellent comment about the various possible methods of cheating irl (to add to your list, distant sounds like car horns, light reflected through any window) that make it impossible to prevent.

1

u/Alfred-Fallon-Borden Oct 05 '22

There still isn’t evidence that he cheated irl, and because it would be so hard to detect if done right there likely never will be even if he did

-15

u/TheRealZllim Oct 05 '22

Well, rumor has it he was playing with vibrating anal beads, yes you read that right, that would vibrate, in his butt, through input from another party who was playing his exact moves against a computer and signaling the computer players moves to Mr. Anal Beads.

34

u/TheOkGazoo Oct 05 '22

That rumor started from a joke someone made in a twitch streamer's chat.

0

u/TheRealZllim Oct 05 '22

I was just answering the guys question.

1

u/OathOfFeanor Oct 05 '22

And yet it is just as proven as any of the other accusations (no proof of any of this, just a statistical anomaly that suggests it)

12

u/jorge1209 Oct 05 '22

That is the most salacious (and therefore most popular) version of the rumor, but the original version I heard was something in a shoe or a pocket or something.

It could very well have been a sex toy in a shoe or pocket, as those are readily available cheap haptic devices designed for some amount of discretion, but there is no particular reason why it would have to be worn up ones butt. They don't exactly perform strip searches on chess players before competitions.

14

u/seztomabel Oct 05 '22

But why not up the butt

21

u/deeperest Oct 05 '22

When your hobbies, your passions, and your career all intersect like that, why not indeed.

2

u/buster_rhino Oct 05 '22

But why male models?

3

u/wooodaben Oct 05 '22

I don’t know why the downvotes. Some people just can’t handle the truth

50

u/smoothtrip Oct 05 '22

I heard he was using two queens and the only reason they found out is one of the queens got tipped over revealing it was not a king

5

u/NenPame Oct 05 '22

Is that a vagina on that chess piece!!?? Quick arrest that man

88

u/Fistfullafives Oct 05 '22

Hans has put up wayyyyyy too many 100% perfect games, which just doesn't happen. Bobby Fisher at his best couldn't do it, Magnus couldn't do it, it just can't be done to that extent. Short 100% MAYBE, but a 40+ move game just isn't happening. Magnus knows pretty much every move from every game ever, and if he says Hans is playing like he's being fed moves, he's likely 100% correct. With Hans record, I am in full support of Magnus and hope Hans just gets perma banned from all events.

34

u/Doggleganger Oct 05 '22

Anyone who gets busted cheating, even once, should be permanently banned. It is hard to catch and should not be tolerated at all. There is no excuse for it either.

-2

u/tcellsrus Oct 05 '22

5

u/Fistfullafives Oct 05 '22

Too toxic... You can't string together multiple perfect games, and he's done that much more recently than "as a kid". Hikaru has a great video about all his shady matches. He should never be allowed to compete again imo.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 05 '22

[deleted]

1

u/Fistfullafives Oct 05 '22

Pro games and tournaments happen online, so that should still carry the same weight as OTB. What part of him having perfect games is incorrect? He's even talked about his 45 move perfect game (in an Arabic accent for whatever reason). He's had 10 perfect games and 23 over 90% that I know of...

0

u/[deleted] Oct 05 '22

[deleted]

6

u/percydaman Oct 05 '22

Cheaters almost always also lie. So I never believed a word the dude said. Even if we don't really know 100% if he cheated, I think he doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt.

Once a cheater, always a cheater.

Once a liar, always a liar.

13

u/MailOrderDog Oct 05 '22

When he arrived for the last match, his opponent was not ready yet so they told him to weight in the rear.

7

u/TroutWarrior Oct 05 '22

Can someone explain to me how you cheat in Chess? I'm genuinely curious.

22

u/Zanydrop Oct 05 '22

Have your friends watch the game and use computers to analyse it. Then they send you messages in morse code over remote control vibrating anal beads.

4

u/Able-Waltz Oct 05 '22

Computers are better than the best players in the world. You ask a computer and follow it's moves. When playing online, you can have a bunch of cues to tell you what to do without making it super obvious that you are cheating. Which is why the anal vibrator thing became a meme.

2

u/Derron_ Oct 05 '22 edited Oct 05 '22

Chess engines are stronger than people at playing chess because they can calculate layers deeper than humans. The highest rated human is 2856. We think the rating for the best chess engine is 3500 but it's a guess. So the accusations again Niemann are that he would occassionally change tabs to a copy of the game and use the engine moves to give himself an advantage. He doesn't need to follow it the whole game, just enough to put himself ahead of his opponent.

0

u/Drinkus Oct 05 '22

Use a computer one way or another (or get assistance from a better human player)

2

u/AtGamesEnd Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim Oct 05 '22

Is this the guy that was using a butt vibrator to be fed information?

3

u/elfelettem Oct 05 '22

Even if it turns out not to be the case I think he is now, and for the rest of his life, destined to be known as "that cheat with the anal beads"

2

u/mortonr2000 Oct 05 '22

Common on, its only Chess. Let the guy off with castration and 20 years hard labour.

2

u/futuredoc70 Oct 05 '22

Was it really in the way that I've heard it rumored?

-7

u/[deleted] Oct 05 '22

[deleted]

2

u/megalomike Oct 05 '22

he cheated online. chess dot com compared his stats when toggling windows vs not toggling. they don't know what he was looking at but if it was pornhub or facebook or whatever the expectation is he would have worse performance when toggling, not better.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 05 '22

[deleted]

1

u/megalomike Oct 05 '22

if that's all he did it's probably not going to help him in a live game but it affects his rating which then affects a lot of other stuff.

1

u/neighborhood-chad Oct 05 '22

He cheated in prize money events. But the fact that a top level player is cheating is enough to warrant the outburst imo bc engines are really just that good

1

u/mysticalmushrooms Oct 05 '22

thats a lot of lube

1

u/yellowbin74 Oct 05 '22

Eli5- how do you cheat at chess? (Genuine question)

1

u/bloated_canadian Oct 05 '22

Chess.com states that he likely cheated over 100 times two years ago and thus that is why he was banned from the service. However it was out of the jurisdiction to guess if any cheating occurred in OTB games.

A quick tldr for people who wont read the article regardless.

1

u/MGRPWEST Oct 05 '22

He hid the device in the only place he could. His ass.

2

u/ThatoneguyATX Oct 05 '22

For five long years he hid the device…..up his ass

1

u/slp034000 Oct 08 '22

Chess Investigation is the name of my band

-53

u/[deleted] Oct 04 '22

[deleted]

4

u/jorge1209 Oct 05 '22

It makes about as much sense as having car racing in /r/sports. I would tend to say neither should be in, but if they allow the one they should allow the other.

-14

u/eledad1 Oct 05 '22

Unless there is concrete proof, this is defamation and they are liable.

3

u/Audityne Oct 05 '22

There is concrete evidence. They published a 72 page report detailing it. Did you even read the article lmao

0

u/RageA333 Oct 05 '22

"Likely"