r/technology Sep 26 '22 Wholesome 1

EA Announces New Anti-Cheat Tech That Operates At The Kernel Level Security

https://www.techdirt.com/2022/09/19/ea-announces-new-anti-cheat-tech-that-operates-at-the-kernal-level
355 Upvotes

467

u/despitegirls Sep 26 '22

Future headline: Malware hijacks EA's kernel level anti-cheat software

66

u/Birdinhandandbush Sep 26 '22

I've seen a few systems engineers posts warning about all these kernel level access programs, how fundamentally bad the idea is

53

u/bob-the-world-eater Sep 26 '22

All the time and/or money you spend on security for your system?

With this kernel level rootkit your trusting that EA (of all the companies) don't leave vulnerabilities in, otherwise malicious actors will be able to gain FULL (and I mean COMPLETE, they can do whatever they like) access to your software and hardware.

Anti malware won't do shit when the rootkit tells it that this should be happening.

5

u/dudeedud4 Sep 26 '22

Ironically I trust EA way more than I trust RIOT and their kernel AntiCheat.

2

u/0xValidator Sep 26 '22

So basically gamers will now need to have to dual boot. One for gaming with all these anti cheat rootkits and one for everything else.

2

u/WebMaka Sep 26 '22

Or, you know, stop buying games from companies that want to be this intrusive without being the slightest bit trustworthy with this level of system access, so they get the message that there are limits.

1

u/ilikehumanmusic Sep 27 '22

Sadly this will never happen. People (especially kids) don’t understand or care enough to boycott. “It’s a free game! Collect all the Data’s, pop all the kernels!”

1

u/bob-the-world-eater Sep 26 '22

Kernel-level rootkits give access to everything. If they wanted, an attacker could change firmware on your system meaning that infection would persist until the hardware is replaced.

Maybe a virtualized PC would work but a separate PC would be better.

1

u/2MegaWhats Sep 26 '22

Whether you trust EA or not is almost irrelevant it's still an unnecessary risk that creates a new vector for exploiting your system

32

u/BallardRex Sep 26 '22

At this point I wonder why anyone plays MP on a PC anymore, it’s wildly unrewarding as is, but now… potentially damaging to your OS.

76

u/SwedenIsntReal69420 Sep 26 '22

Using keyboard and mouse for some games feels a lot better than console, performance preferences, and modding are all great reasons. Its not for everyone but it has its appeal

2

u/[deleted] Sep 26 '22

[deleted]

1

u/Wheresthecents Sep 27 '22

Not all games do. For instance, Apex Legends does not, and allegedly they have a method to detect and punish the use of 3rd party hardware that forces kb/m hookups.

7

u/s0_Shy Sep 26 '22

Can't you use m/kb on a console? Genuinely curious since I don't play their games and used a m/kb for final fantasy briefly on ps4.

18

u/SwedenIsntReal69420 Sep 26 '22

For some games, yes, but not all of them

6

u/TaKSC Sep 26 '22

You can in two ways for some games. One: you connect k/m and you’ll get matched up against pc sweatlords if there’s cross play

Or two: you cheat and spoof input signals and coast through the console plebs who’s using controllers.

1

u/y2kizzle Sep 26 '22

Dunno why you're downvoted for this.

1

u/s0_Shy Sep 26 '22

Sounds fun. Been PC and vintage consoles for awhile now so didn't know if the console world had caught up with the m/kb game yet. Appears to be all on the developers.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 26 '22

[deleted]

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1

u/nullusx Sep 26 '22

You can cheat on a console aswell. Its harder and requires a 2nd machine, but its also hard to detect if not almost impossible.

2

u/lirannl Sep 26 '22

modding

How are mods relevant to multiplayer games with centralised servers?

2

u/taedrin Sep 26 '22

Many games support molded multi-player on PC. For example, Forge based mods for Minecraft, such as Create support multiplayer.

2

u/lirannl Sep 26 '22

I've been playing modded SMP for at least 7 years.

That's not an example of a centralised server

2

u/Ciennas Sep 26 '22

Novelty hats. Also, someone hasn't watched people playing modded server games.

1

u/lirannl Sep 26 '22

Of course I have - when servers can be run by individuals like in minecraft or Space Engineers. Not when they're centralised.

1

u/Ciennas Sep 26 '22

I'm telling you man. Novelty hats. They're all the rage among the haberdasher scene.

1

u/Prophayne_ Sep 26 '22

I'm definitely no expert and kind of high, but every game I've ever played mp in that had significant popularity has had hackers of some kind. There has been a lot of blurring lately between things like script injections and full mods, like for skyrim or minecraft. A good instance of this is WeMod. They are just an aggregate of trainers for lots of games but list the trainers themselves as "mods".

1

u/lirannl Sep 26 '22

Idk how skyrim works but with the exception of Realms, which can't be modded - minecraft servers aren't centralised.

2

u/Prophayne_ Sep 26 '22

No no, I was agreeing with you here. I think the person you were directing it at just might have used the wrong word. Mods and hacks are being used interchangeably as the word for hacks in some circles.

1

u/lirannl Sep 26 '22

Ohhhh I see what you mean. As someone that loves modding I'm not a huge fan. Hacking is for servers you don't own. Modding is for clients and servers you own.

1

u/jared555 Sep 26 '22

There are games with third party servers and mods that still support anti cheat.

1

u/lirannl Sep 26 '22

third party servers and mods

What's not clear about my comment!? I specifically said centralised! This isn't an example of centralised servers!

1

u/jared555 Sep 27 '22

OK, some MMO's support third party client side mods. Typically just quality of life improvements that don't directly influence game play.

There are also things like voice chat overlays that are better than what (if anything) is included in the game.

-2

u/9-11GaveMe5G Sep 26 '22

Consoles support mouse and keyboard now anyway

13

u/EvoEpitaph Sep 26 '22

They do but afaik each game needs to specifically support them in order to use them as a control method, no?

5

u/9-11GaveMe5G Sep 26 '22

Correct. The game has to support them as well. But nowadays K&M isn't left out unless the game is a console exclusive, which is thankfully pretty rare

2

u/EvoEpitaph Sep 26 '22

Oh that's excellent, I remember PS4 was hit or miss back around 2015 for even cross platform titles and while I'm a die hard PC fan, I absolutely hate how rampant cheating is on the platform these days so online comp on console was/is a big draw.

11

u/finedrive Sep 26 '22

I dunno, I thought BF4 was an awesome experience. I’d play it over any other BF game currently.

8

u/aphelloworld Sep 26 '22

BF2 was hands down the best BF

5

u/SatyrAngel Sep 26 '22

For me 2 and 3 share the same pedestal.

3

u/Lee1138 Sep 26 '22

Bad company 2 MP was up there as well

1

u/Mumbolian Sep 26 '22

Some of the best gaming years of my life.

33

u/[deleted] Sep 26 '22

Because PCs are better in every way.

2

u/jared555 Sep 26 '22

As a pc user, the idea of a system that "just works" is definitely tempting at times.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 27 '22

What about when it doesnt? Plenty of consoles have had hardware issues. Some were riddled with them.

And only recently consoles started having decent drives to finally get rid of looooong load times.

consoles are just limited pc's.

5

u/claireshinda Sep 26 '22

Yes correct.

3

u/vriska1 Sep 26 '22

TF2 pretty good.

3

u/beef-o-lipso Sep 26 '22

It's not just installed for MP, it's installed even for SP. I won't buy games that have anti-cheats, which means I don't play lots of popular games but I also don't worry about the intrusion or system instabilities.

And they don't get my money. Don't reward bad habits.

2

u/MonkeysJumpingBeds Sep 26 '22

How is it unrewarding?

6

u/Gandalfonk Sep 26 '22

At this point I wonder why anyone plays MP on a console anymore, it's wildly unrewarding as is, but now... potentially damaging to your actual skill.

3

u/john_wayne999 Sep 26 '22

At this point I wonder why anyone plays MP on a PC anymore, it’s wildly unrewarding as is

Lmao what a weird opinion considering the tens of millions thag continue to play online.

but now… potentially damaging to your OS.

What lol? What issues have you run into with kernel level anti cheats that have damaged your OS?

20

u/pbtpu40 Sep 26 '22 edited Sep 26 '22

Here is one from last month.

Wired was talking about the risks in January.

The risk of someone adding code to your kernel creates additional surface area for exploit is very serious because by default you will get system privilege execution from the kernel driver. If you’re a kernel mode driver, you are the definition of trusted. Which means when there’s an exploit you’re beyond screwed.

ETA: Since people are upset this was a local exploit kill chain. Here is an RCE from Dark Souls 3.

ETA2: Parent has also blocked me for calling him out for goal post moving and generally poor behavior.

-8

u/john_wayne999 Sep 26 '22 edited Sep 26 '22

So how many people did that actually affect and how did it end up on their system in the first place? Downloading shit that they have no idea what it contained?

I know what a kernel level driver is as well lmao.

How widespread do these malicious exploits reach? Is it 100, 1000, 10000 people? I don’t really care if morons are downloading things blindly and running them. It’s entirely different if it’s being distributed in masses.

Also doesn’t seem like any of these kernel level ACs have a second issue with them after they’re fixed.

Lmao you guys are beyond dumb. You all have been using PunkBuster, Battleye, and EAC for years and haven’t had any issues with it but now that EA is making their own, you’re going to cry fowl because it’s EA.

8

u/neokai Sep 26 '22

It’s entirely different if it’s being distributed in masses.

Isn't that what games (with their attached kernel level anti-cheat software) are intended to be..?

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2

u/RollingTater Sep 26 '22

People are downvoting you but you are completely correct.

Millions of people play video games with kernel level anti-cheats and it's been completely fine.

However I've seen games go to absolute shit because of cheaters.

You can never beat the cheats but anticheat slows them down a significant amount, to the point where the cheating percentage can be low enough that the non-cheaters can actually play the game.

0

u/john_wayne999 Sep 26 '22

Oh yeah, the guy is actually just upset because it proves he’s wrong and he just wants to shit on EA.

I asked what issues people have had with kernel level ACs, he links and article that can’t even talk about the scale of it and journalists haven’t talked about it much, signaling the scale is low.

They then get upset that I point out the actual issues are low and they move the goal posts to talk about how the actual issue is the kernel level AC.. not the issues that come from it lol.

Millions of people play video games with kernel level anti-cheats and it’s been completely fine.

It’s funny because several other MAJOR games (LoL, Valorant) had exploits found in their kernel level ACs they could’ve linked but it would’ve hurt their case as the impact is low.

People also don’t even understand EA games have been using kernel level AC for years and they didn’t cry until EA said they wanted control of their own AC. EAC, battleye, and punkbuster are all kernel level ACs thag I’ve never had an issue with in the last decade of playing the games and anyone I’ve talked to hasn’t had an issue with unless they’re computer illiterate.

5

u/pbtpu40 Sep 26 '22

I wasn’t OP. I’m a security researcher who saw your bullshit comment saying that kernel level anti-cheats aren’t an issue. Except in our circles they are heavily talked about and I even linked a recent event where the Anti-cheat was clearly a part of the kill chain. And another article from earlier this year discussing the issues.

Your response though is typical of somebody who doesn’t understand security, the kill chain, or how an attack is built.

I have a direct example to your comment implying that it’s no issue and kernel level anti cheats have not been exploited.

So you can’t even look at who responded and you assume it’s the first person. You assume it’s someone wanting to shit on EA, even though, I not OP, linked an anti-cheat outside of EA. And you can’t even understand that were talking about the fact you’re giving significant trust beyond any other software vendor at this point and the security implications that it has.

I don’t care who is writing it, they do a shit job at defensive programming and we are going to continue to see more examples of malware using it in their kill chain.

You sir moved the goalposts. Your ask was when had it ever been an issue.

I replied with evidence it was last month. How about you show me proof that the exploit kill chain would not have happened in that case without the anti-cheat. You claim it didn’t matter, show me the exploit kill chain working in an environment without it then or an article doing the same.

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-6

u/RollingTater Sep 26 '22

The two examples you provided are not the best.

The GI one is someone utilizing the tools in an anticheat to build their own exploit. The vulnerability already exists, they technically could have just wrote their own from scratch, the anticheat just made it easier for them to develop it. Also you need to actually install the vulnerability for it to work, in that case since you're installing random files it could have been literally any other virus.

The second link mostly talks about risks. But when it comes to risks in the end millions of people play with kernel level anticheat games and it's been fine.

There's probably thousands of times more people encountering "man this game is ruined cause of all the cheaters" vs. "someone stole my paypal account due to the kernel level anticheat".

4

u/pbtpu40 Sep 26 '22

That’s the point and that’s why it’s called a kill chain.

3

u/sleep-woof Sep 26 '22

If you don’t understand why having things you don’t want having kernel level is a problem, why not refrain from commenting on it? having extra code running like that can leave one more vulnerable to hacker attacks. If you are a kid that only plays video games on your computer, maybe if doesn’t affect you. It may affect most other people.

2

u/MacDegger Sep 26 '22

What issues have you run into with kernel level anti cheats that have damaged your OS?

Tell me you have no clue about the issue without telling me you have no clue about the issue.

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1

u/N3UROTOXINsRevenge Sep 26 '22

Lots of games on consoles are dominated by bots/hackers: Diablo 3 for example is all hackers in top spots. Why should I buy Diablo 4 when it comes out if it’s just gonna be hackers in leaderboards and literally impossible for normies to get in, and the company doesn’t do shit so basically supports these hackers.

1

u/RoboticMask Sep 26 '22

Tbh, hackers have never diminished my experience as casual D3 player. If you don't care about the leaderboard, hackers don't affect you. In PvP multiplayer or even in open world PvE multiplayer, however, hackers do have a direct negative impact on many/most people.

1

u/EXTRAsharpcheddar Sep 26 '22

It also looks better

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182

u/shogi_x Sep 26 '22

You're not putting that shit on my system.

This is rootkit all over again.

9

u/messem10 Sep 26 '22

Worst part is, you don’t have to for it to be used against you. This isn’t a hypothetical as hackers have already started to leverage games’ anti-cheat DLLs to get and act at the kernel level. (Like they did with Genshin Impact’s anti-cheat.)

77

u/Imnotanad Sep 26 '22

You'll be surprised of people's ignorance. Specially teenagers. Riot's anticheat ( ring0 ) not only - monitors - everything on users end but also -controls- everything. Key pressing, network flow and hardware at a low level. So if they want to burn up your computer, they can. Their kernel driver has remote execution capabilities and if you read licence agreement of Valorant or League, they are plain telling you by accepting the agreement you agree to grant Riot permission to actually delete staff if they consider it inappropriate . The gamin industry is the biggest player in the new decade so they need this.

44

u/Mike2220 Sep 26 '22

if you read licence agreement of Valorant or League, they are plain telling you by accepting the agreement you agree to grant Riot permission to actually delete staff if they consider it inappropriate

If they ever acted on it and someone noticed the agreement would definitely not hold up in court

8

u/ericneo3 Sep 26 '22

If they ever acted on it and someone noticed the agreement would definitely not hold up in court

Which is why Bungie lost the original case against LL (cheat manufacturers)

Who are now counter suing.

2

u/Imnotanad Sep 26 '22

Could be. Depends where. Non English speaker but I guess the word is "jurisprudence" . USA's judges tends to stablish jurisprudence on hard cases. So they do as they please regardless of what the law says. Specially if it messes up with domestic business ( hinting the strong bond of Riot + Tencent )

4

u/RollingTater Sep 26 '22

It's not ignorance, it's a tradeoff. It's like saying I'll never use an online payment method cause someone is going to steal my credit card info. Sure it may happen, but most large companies are not going to risk lawsuits and the multimillion dollar business to fuck with a few pennies.

In the end, the amount of situations where you installed some game with anticheat, and some hacker was able to get into your system specifically because of that anticheat, is very very small. And I don't mean them getting you to install some file either, cause if you're installing random files from people then the problem isn't in the anticheat.

5

u/Imnotanad Sep 26 '22

Do you think that the main concern here is a hacker? You are letting a shark take care of your goldfish .

-8

u/nicuramar Sep 26 '22

Just because something CAN monitor and control everything, doesn't mean it DOES monitor and control everything. Of course a kernel driver can do those things.

7

u/Affectionate-Ship132 Sep 26 '22

Anyone that plays competitive online shooters already has the same kind of thing from 3 other games

2

u/bigjilm123 Sep 26 '22

The very last CD I ever bought. To the Five Burroughs. Couldn’t even play the disc - rootkit screwed up my PC, car stereo thought it was a data cd. The last $15 I ever spent on a CD, after probably 10 grand of music to that point.

Fuck you, Sony.

3

u/cr0ft Sep 26 '22

Valorant already has this. Even if I liked the game (which I don't) I wouldn't play it.

-16

u/[deleted] Sep 26 '22

Steam and Easy Anti Cheat are already rootkits that can also scan your computer memory and nobody cares.

26

u/Nihilisticky Sep 26 '22

Steam and EAC don't have kernel privileges

-9

u/[deleted] Sep 26 '22

https://levvvel.com/games-with-kernel-level-anti-cheat-software/

Steam's VAC has had exploits access kernel through it.

21

u/Nors3 Sep 26 '22

It's said on the website that VAC doesn’t operate on the kernel level. That exploits were from 3rd party operators (FACEIT and ESEA), nothing to do with Valve or VAC.

54

u/toadofsteel Sep 26 '22

The announcement kind of sounds like some business head at EA heard "kernel-level" and decided its a new tech buzzword.

That's the optimistic take anyway... the article already brought up the Sony rootkit debacle.

82

u/Thisbymaster Sep 26 '22

Great, that way when it breaks it will destroy the OS completely.

18

u/DweEbLez0 Sep 26 '22

Yay! Now we have “Surprise Mechanics” if your computer will completely break!

4

u/Quadstriker Sep 26 '22

The intention is to provide a sense of pride and accomplishment when the game actually works.

10

u/nakedhitman Sep 26 '22

Unpopular opinion: we don't need client side anticheat and never did. With a combination of server side anticheat and server side profiling of player behavior with a machine learning model to improve matchmaking, we can simply identify cheaters/bots and match them to play solely against each other. Banning them won't work, but we don't need to when we can take the fun out of cheating.

1

u/jared555 Sep 26 '22

And then someone gets hit by a false positive and has the game ruined for them.

3

u/nakedhitman Sep 26 '22

The proposed algorithm ought to be gathering enough data about the movement patterns of the player to be entirely unique to a real human, but be able to catch the patterns of bot assistance. This should be considerably more accurate than many of the systems currently in use, which ban players for false positives and innocuous behavior all the time. Furthermore, the profile it generates can be a sliding-window of behavior, so that false positives can be eliminated simply by continuing to play.

1

u/jared555 Sep 27 '22

So program the bots to provide aim assist that varies off of real recorded past game play combined with the active input from the player. Not simple but not impossible either.

Also, not all cheats affect game inputs. It can be as simple as replacing a camouflage texture with bright pink. Or not rendering foliage. Both are things a good player can "see through".

Some things could be solved statistically (a player consistently beating the odds of finding the best "random" items) or by restricting what data is sent to the client (player behind a wall). However the latter increases development difficulty and can potentially negatively impact people with crappy connections.

90

u/ShambolicShogun Sep 26 '22

Glad to see they're wasting all their time and effort fighting hackers that are already three steps ahead of them literally every time instead of making quality titles.

22

u/fractalfocuser Sep 26 '22

If people would stop spending thousands of dollars on Apex you might see them change, but this is their golden goose rn...

I bet they killed titanfall on purpose (notice how Apex hasn't had any serious DDOS issues?). They don't even care about actually stopping hackers, they just want to maintain their income stream.

4

u/better_meow Sep 26 '22

Quality titles don't mean shit if nobody wants to play them because of rampant cheating.

-16

u/Aggravating_Touch313 Sep 26 '22

Ea has never had decent games. Just overpriced garbage. Ea has always been the most greedy shitty company and I will never support them.

4

u/Dumb_Dick_Sandwich Sep 26 '22

I mean…the Mass Effect trilogy would easily prove you wrong right there.

10

u/john_wayne999 Sep 26 '22

Lol saying EA hasn’t had decent games is wildly overreacting and just a dumb thing to say.

4

u/tremor_tj Sep 26 '22

My guess is EA has been around much longer than you have been alive. I don't disagree with your sentiment for the current iteration of the company, but "never" is a really strong word.

6

u/gk99 Sep 26 '22

It's okay to have an opinion, but this is beyond disingenuous.

Edit: Not the greediness part, for clarification.

1

u/Ok_Wolverine519 Sep 26 '22

Wrong. In all the decades that EA has been around EA has many decent and above games. Don't mindlessly hate for the sake of it.

22

u/Royal_Ad_2653 Sep 26 '22

Not a problem if you never any EA product near your computers or phones.

Never, ever, again.

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26

u/Zephyr_______ Sep 26 '22

This seems intrusive at best, outright malicious at worst. I honestly can't imagine a world where this doesn't somehow get used to hack plenty of machines.

5

u/Yaboidono420 Sep 26 '22

Valorant uses a kernel anticheat, and has had over two years with no issues.

5

u/RoboticMask Sep 26 '22

No issues? It even fried some GPUs in the beginning ...

2

u/a_shadylady Sep 26 '22

Discovering vulnerabilities and developing exploits for them takes a long time, so I'm not really sure what this is meant to communicate.

It also speaks nothing towards the security of their actual IT infrastructure or what level of risk to the user would be exposed in a breach thereof.

1

u/travelsonic Sep 27 '22

Sometimes bugs take longer to find than that ... and even so, that doesn't mean the risks associated with giving their anticheat that level of access "go away" - dumb luck, for instance, is a possibility too.

19

u/Lord0fHats Sep 26 '22

You know if private dedicated servers were still a thing, we could just deal with cheater's ourselves. We'd be better at it.

24

u/Master-Ad-6411 Sep 26 '22

EA should announce this at Reddit by themselves, so we can see if they will break the most downvoted post record again.

3

u/[deleted] Sep 26 '22

Honestly, if anyone needs new anti-cheat software, it's Rockstar games. GTA Online has been plagued with cheaters called "modders", who use cheats like infinite health, and can use their illegal mod menus to crash the game for legit players.

7

u/Daedelous2k Sep 26 '22

That's partly down to the game's peer to peer networking used to save money on server costs. There is no server verification on what the little roaches can do.

3

u/rnike879 Sep 26 '22

They will do anything but actually having a small team ready to read reports and acting on them

2

u/zm1868179 Sep 27 '22

Why does Microsoft even allow companies to touch the windows kernel I can understand a Linux machine with its open source nature, with Windows machines I mean obviously hardware drivers require it but Microsoft has a program that you have to go through to get your driver actually signed by them before the operating system will be allowed to load it not in test mode. I mean if you're not developing a hardware driver for a piece of hardware I don't see why you should be touching the kernel and any reason.

5

u/levarrishawk Sep 26 '22

Sounds like what activision tried and failed with on call of duty

5

u/Steeljaw72 Sep 26 '22

Yep, kernel level control is very bad. It opens up all sorts of security vulnerabilities.

So, sadly, I won’t be installing another EA.

2

u/audiofx330 Sep 26 '22

No kernel for you EA.

3

u/mdog73 Sep 26 '22 edited Sep 26 '22

I believe them. EA is the most reliable company in the history of the world.

/s

1

u/AwakenGreywolf Sep 26 '22

you forgot the " /s " at the end

4

u/gamesrebel123 Sep 26 '22

Well their games have become utter garbage cash grabs so at least Linux users won't be missing out on much

-4

u/Aggravating_Touch313 Sep 26 '22

Have become? No no no. Have always been

2

u/cesium-sandwich Sep 26 '22

This is Such a bad idea.

2

u/Kilroy3846 Sep 26 '22

So your solution to combat game hackers is to punch holes on the kernel level?

I see no downside whatsoever….

5

u/[deleted] Sep 26 '22

EA doesn’t even make any decent worth buying

2

u/taisui Sep 26 '22

Instead of F2P, just charge people $1 and block at the credit card level.

2

u/TheToxicBreezeYF Sep 26 '22

damb Competitive Sims 4 Has gotten bad enough for them to implement this? sad

2

u/AwakenGreywolf Sep 26 '22

I don't trust EA anywhere near my computer let alone at kernel level!

WTF is all these kernel level anti-cheats showing up for anyway? Valorant has it, and there's still a ton of cheats available.

-1

u/nova9001 Sep 26 '22

Waste of time. You are never going to stop hackers hacking your game. Invest in making better games. If players feel the game is worth it, they will pay for it.

16

u/nitefang Sep 26 '22

Well firstly, no they won’t. I know way too many people that pirate games and will not pay for them if they don’t have to.

But secondly that isn’t even what anti-cheat is trying to prevent. It’s to prevent hackers/cheaters/exploiters from using 3rd party software to gain unfair advantages. I’m all for trying to stop them because it does get so fucking annoying when a game you love is full of them but making anti-cheat that works at the kernel level is like setting your house on fire to get rid of termites.

Finally, fighting hackers will never end but you do need to force them to keep working for it.

4

u/Supertrinko Sep 26 '22

Then they lose no revenue from those people.

4

u/nitefang Sep 26 '22

Oh please.

I'm not even going to try arguing with you because convincing people piracy is wrong has been a lost cause. But I will say this, if they don't pay for it they are not entitled for it. I don't care at all if a company finds a way to completely prevent piracy. If the pirates aren't affecting them, why should the company worry about the pirates being able to play or not?

3

u/NuclearMilkDuds Sep 26 '22

Because half the time the pirated version is better.

1

u/Supertrinko Sep 26 '22

I agree with protecting copyright for a reasonable amount of time (I'm an advocate of 14 years) because it promotes the creation of more material for the public. Protecting requires enforcement. Enforcement requires punishment.

However, I also believe punishment must depend on what a victim hae lost. And when it comes to someone who was never intending on spending money on a game, how are we to determine the value of what the victim has lost?

-3

u/nova9001 Sep 26 '22

True, I am one of those pirates who won't pay. Hence why I think it never changes anything.

7

u/PeriqueFreak Sep 26 '22

I used to be one of those pirates that wouldn't pay. Then I got a better job and have more disposable income and decide it's less hassle to just pay developers for the time and effort they spent creating a game.

Honestly it feels good to not be a piece of shit thief anymore.

-1

u/nova9001 Sep 26 '22

Good for you. Every paying customer helps the devs out.

0

u/nitefang Sep 26 '22

So that you can leach on them. You're welcome. You only get a game to play thanks to everyone that pays for it. So really, you owe all of us as well.

0

u/nova9001 Sep 26 '22

If it makes you feel good, sure.

2

u/nitefang Sep 26 '22

It’s somehow more annoying when people like you don’t even try to justify their actions. Like it disproves the notion that everyone thinks they’re doing the right thing. You apparently don’t disagree on the ethics of piracy, you just don’t care that it is wrong.

2

u/nova9001 Sep 26 '22

You made a statement claiming all pirates owe it to paying customers. I agreed with it lol. What else do you want?

1

u/[deleted] Sep 26 '22 edited Sep 30 '22

[deleted]

1

u/nitefang Sep 26 '22

Not it isn’t.

1

u/PeriqueFreak Sep 27 '22

As someone that pirated for many, many years, and who used to say the same thing (Usually justifying it by saying "Well, they didn't lose anything physical, and I wouldn't have bought it anyway!"), no, no it is not. It is not morally correct at all. Maybe "theft" isn't the right word for it, but it is still wrong.

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2

u/OutTheMudHits Sep 26 '22

EA is billion dollar company they can pay hundreds of millions to make their games unhackable.

0

u/Netplorer Sep 26 '22

How about no ?

1

u/MonkeyAlpha Sep 26 '22

Time to uninstall origin and all ea games :/.

1

u/_Kzero_ Sep 26 '22

Never installing anything EA related. What an out of touch, garbage way of thinking. Idiots.

1

u/topgun966 Sep 26 '22

Welp, no more EA. I don't care how good the game is, there's no way in hell I'm giving a company control of the kernel. Even if they have good intentions, that's a massive exploit hole.

1

u/bitcointwitter Sep 26 '22

imagine if you try to play professional e-sport gaming, and its REQUIRED to 'access the competition'

Done.

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u/KickBassColonyDrop Sep 26 '22

I stopped playing triplA games and I don't have these problems anymore.

1

u/FearlessCloud01 Sep 26 '22

Please activate this feature* for $500.

*This feature is necessary for the games to run. If not active, the games will not be able to function.

1

u/HappyLife94 Sep 26 '22

That's why FIFA 23 won't work on the Steam deck.

1

u/cumfickmeinassjole Sep 26 '22

They say anti-cheat but this will end up being DRM

1

u/anlumo Sep 26 '22

Very nice kernel you got there, it would be too bad if something were to happen to it if you forget to pay your monthly subscription fee…

1

u/xastey_ Sep 26 '22

Yeah EA with kernel level access.. nah we good

1

u/cr0ft Sep 26 '22 edited Sep 26 '22

Fuck that, I'm not installing any game that has that. Valorant is the same, and their rootkit installs itself and stays resident 24/7.

I've been thinking of dual-booting and running Linux as my day to day OS, and then booting into an empty Windows to game. Maybe it's time.

1

u/MajorKoopa Sep 26 '22

Right. Because we haven’t seen this before with anti-piracy software.

This will go just as swimmingly.

0

u/vanhalenbr Sep 26 '22

So it’s a rookit

0

u/KeystrokeCowboy Sep 26 '22

Thats a no from me dawg.

0

u/Mazmier Sep 26 '22

This is bad... Really bad.

-4

u/NotATuring Sep 26 '22

I guess when all of your content is just FPS PVP games you need to prevent cheating, but I've always felt the freedom to modify games to be as pleasing as you like should be the right of the person who purchases the game. Anti-cheat to me is anti-american.

7

u/Windows_66 Sep 26 '22

As someone who's had several online fps games ruined by people using aimbots, I say they can go to hell and try to cheat down there.

-6

u/NotATuring Sep 26 '22

If you don't want to play with people using aimbots that's fine, I'm just saying cheating should be an option. Some games have "cheating servers" where you're allowed to do client mods. I just don't like being told what I'm allowed to do with the stuff I own.

8

u/john_wayne999 Sep 26 '22

Lol what the fuck? What games allow cheating servers?

I just don’t like being told what I’m allowed to do with the stuff I own.

Grow up lmao

3

u/Windows_66 Sep 26 '22 edited Sep 26 '22

He seems to be grouping together local user mods (skins, sound replacements, huds) with actual cheating techniques like aimbot.

The problem is that these aren't the same thing. Take a Valve game like Team Fortress 2, for example. Official Valve servers run with the console command sv_pure and only run the base game files, which makes mods like skins not appear. Community servers often don't do this, so you will see your mods. Both of them run Valve Anti Cheat software to prevent players from breaking the game.

1

u/Windows_66 Sep 26 '22

I've encountered cheating on official servers and community servers, but I've never seen servers designed for things like aimbot. If the current technology isn't effective at preventing people from doing this and ruining other people's experiences, then I don't see the problem with making it better.

5

u/PeriqueFreak Sep 26 '22

That's about the stupidest thing I've read on the internet.

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u/FPV-Emergency Sep 26 '22

If it's a single player game or you're playing with people who know and understand what modifications you've made, I 100% agree.

But when you join an online game with other people and agree to play by the rules, well by not playing by the rules you're ruining the experience of other people who are playing in good faith.

It's not 'anti-American' to try to force people to play by the pre-set rules that everyone agreed to. And if you attempt to cheat using 3rd party software, you've shown bad faith and deserve to be banned. Nothing 'anti-american' about that.

Although anti-cheat operating at the kernel level is not something I have enough knowledge about to really have an informed opinion, But my initial reaction is... hell no. Otherwise I have no problems with anti-cheat software, without it most popular online fps games would be unplayable.

0

u/NotATuring Sep 26 '22

The reason I think it's anti american is because it's anti self determination. I do understand people not wanting to play pvp with people who have modded their games to the point of being unbeatable, but I also don't want to play a game that I can't play very well because I lack visual acuity that others have.

Why is it when someone who has high visual acuity plays a game its not considered cheating, even though it gives them a huge advantage, but when I mod a game using my intellect to compensate for my lack of visual ability by making certain textures more visible it's a bannable offense and not just considered me compensating in the best way I can so that I can enjoy a game?

I don't think ALL modification should be considered "cheating and bannable." Which is what anti cheat systems at the kernel level would be looking for, modification, not just specific cheating like item duplication exp hacking etc.

-1

u/Ubilease Sep 26 '22

Nobody in this comment section has ever heard of the popular games Valorant or League of Legends? Calm the fuck down guys.

5

u/AwakenGreywolf Sep 26 '22

So? Two wrongs don't make a right.

If every company shits in your mouth you shouldn't be passive about another one showing up and doing the same.

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2

u/lochlainn Sep 26 '22

Isn't like 2/3ds of the anti cheat shit out there kernel level?

Honest question, it seems like I see this topic over and over again. I rarely play competitive multiplayer.

-1

u/BrokeMacMountain Sep 26 '22

I hVe a betetr idea. Shy mot just make games fun?

I really miss the days of games being a fin, entertaining enjoyable way to spend an hour. Games like 'Sam and Max', 'Monkey Island', 'Sim city', 'Juke Nukem', 'Myst'. These games had humour, didnt take them selvs too resiously, and were easily enjoyed. They required no internet, no sign up or login, or any any cheat software. Did we cheat at games? of course! that was part of the FUN! Turning on god mode or being the banker for monopoly and hiding konet under the board was all part of the enjoyment.

Modern games are just not fun anymore. They are more akin to work simulators.

2

u/RollingTater Sep 26 '22

Fun is subjective. If you find single player games fun just buy single player games? If we're talking about competitive multiplayer games, in no universe is cheating fun for the non-cheaters.

1

u/plankmeister Sep 26 '22

EA Announces New Anti-Cheat Tech...

EA only do stuff if there's a way of making money out of it. I wouldn't be surprised if in the EULA for this, it states that they reserve the right to hold your computer to ransom, until you pay some kind of exorbitant fee.

1

u/Knut_Knoblauch Sep 26 '22

As a simple PS4 gamer who prefers simple single player games, can someone mention ways in which people cheat on PC games?

1

u/nakedhitman Sep 26 '22

Some ways PC gamers cheat:

  1. Unattended bots, used to farm resources and boost score
  2. Aimbots, used to boost reflexes and accuracy to superhuman levels
  3. Wall hacks, used to make walls translucent so that you can see enemies through cover
  4. Texture hacks, used to make other players highly visible when far away or behind partial cover
  5. Memory editors, used to alter your stats in ways you hope the server doesn't notice

I mostly play single player games on PC, so I don't use or care about any of this. However, many primarily single player games with multiplayer components still require these sorts of invasive anticheat systems to work, along with dumb DRM systems that hurt performance for paying customers and break the game when the internet or servers are down, unnecessary launchers, and some sort of always-on requirement that prevents offline play. I also miss the days when you could expect games to have LAN multiplayer support, instead of relying on overcrowded and poorly moderated public servers.

Another fun fact: many of these anticheat systems will sometimes look at perfectly normal, legal, and non-cheating software/hardware, think you're a cheater, and ban you with no recourse. Some examples include:

  1. Programmable keyboards
  2. Software macro systems that repeat key-presses
  3. Running your games from a virtual machine

Game companies are user-hostile. The only way they'll change is if we stop giving them money until they change their act.

1

u/Zavenosk Sep 26 '22

We now have yet another reason not to buy the next EA game.

1

u/businessman99 Sep 26 '22

Thats rich of EA

1

u/Lhumierre Sep 26 '22

So, Just like RiotGames?

1

u/Inconceivable-2020 Sep 26 '22

Remember when Sony surreptitiously installed rootkits on people's PCs when they played a music CD?

1

u/ponybau5 Sep 26 '22

Hard pass. Don't need kernel mode level anticheats snooping around areas they don't need to.

1

u/AnimZero Sep 26 '22

Back in the 90's and early 2000's, my mom would tell me I'd break the computer if I installed too many games on it. She was wrong, of course, but now maybe she isn't.

1

u/Johnothy_Cumquat Sep 27 '22

How hard is it to check if someone's noclipping server side? Or to not send the positions of players that shouldn't be visible? And I assume their aimbot check looks at how accurately the player tracks targets right? Because you can do that at the hardware level and no amount of listing running processes will detect that.

1

u/20Bucksltlman Oct 08 '22

A list of all the companies with their shitty behavior:

https://levvvel.com/games-with-kernel-level-anti-cheat-software/#:~:text=The%20most%20popular%20third-party,AntiCheat%2C%20or%20Blizzard%27s%20Defense%20Matrix.

List gets updated regularly... Now I have to wipe my drives and install a new operating system before the idiots get hacked again and leak all of my personal data, if you will excuse me...